82nd AB POW Purple Heart Grouping

[MWalsh]

I did check my old type POW records, the ones a person had to use prior to the Ancestry.com & NARA listings.

 

They are / were done by punch card originally, then I guess at some point the info in the punch cards was converted to numbers or numbered fields. So one had to pull up a string of 80 characters that when "translated" listed everything the NARA POW info (as listed earlier in your thread) shows in the easy to read format of today.

 

They do show exactly what the NARA POW record posted here shows.

 

My only thought on the POW records or record would be that perhaps the wrong year number or field was punched on your guy's original POW card, resulting in it showing a capture date of 1-25-1944 when perhaps it ought to have been 1-25-1945? I dunno, just a thought.

 

Kurt, you do considerable research on POW's... have you ever come across a POW's NARA record which showed one date and then the real date / correct date of capture, as seen on official paperwork, was off by a year one way or another?

 

MW

[MWalsh]

Some other things worth noting on the NARA POW records...

 

When I originally got my POW info back in the later 1990's or so, it came with a CD of the data that the codes are translated from, as well as a one inch stack of accompanying paperwork to help understand what the codes mean, how the system of codes was devised, etc. I was just briefly going through it again and it brought a couple points to mind, they may apply here.

 

#1 is that some original IBM punch cards used to code the POW info were incomplete or damaged, resulting in not all the data being present. Now in Safrath's case, all the data on place of capture, parent unit, parent unit number, etc, are missing from his NARA listing - that is because they were not on the translated cards or not able to be read off the translated cards due to damage. With that in mind, there could have been some damage to his card which resulted in an incorrect date of capture being "read".

 

#2 is that one should take the "last report date" with a grain of salt... The NARA info I am reading right here in front of me says this about those "Latest report dates" - ""Latest Report Date" sometimes refers to the date the file was closed and not the date the individual was released from POW status." That statement is from the paperwork I got with my POW info in the 1990's, not something you will probably find posted with the info on Ancestry.

 

So does that mean perhaps your guy got captured early on & escaped but had an open POW file? Could be. Was the last report date when he was released or when his original POW file was closed? Don't know.

 

Just food for thought, and things to keep in mind on any POW research I guess.

 

MW

[MWalsh]

A sample of what the original POW cards looked like:

 

 

[swabbie]

Kurt,

Pardon me if I'm deviating slightly from the theme of this thread. Of those POW PHs from the 1945 - 46 timeframe in your collection, is there a predominate engraving style? Four of the five official styles are in or carry into this time frame. Only the script engraving style is clearly outside of it.

[MWalsh]

Anyone have any thoughts on if this was the same engraver that did this Air Medal as did the Purple Heart in this thread?

 

MW

 

 

[KASTAUFFER]

Kurt,

Pardon me if I'm deviating slightly from the theme of this thread. Of those POW PHs from the 1945 - 46 timeframe in your collection, is there a predominate engraving style? Four of the five official styles are in or carry into this time frame. Only the script engraving style is clearly outside of it.

 

All from 1945 have been small machine engraved. The hand engraved + script engraved ones I have ( or have owned in the past ) with original transmittal letters have all been from 1946-47.

 

Kurt

[Kadet]

Received Safrath's separation document, and it only deepens the mystery! It confirms his membership in the 504th and records his jump training and jump wings. Obviously, the Bronze Star is not listed, but neither is the PH or any other awards except the EAME. Strangely, his campaign credit is listed as Naples Foggia, Rome Arno and Central Europe. Safrath didn't arrive in the ETO until 6 Aug 1943, so didn't participate in Sicily, but would have been present for the aborted jump on Rome and the jump at Salerno. Safrath was captured at Anzio, yet Anzio is not listed in his campaign credits. Campaign credit was not supposed to be awarded to POWs so the Central Europe credit is also a mystery. He was discharged on 28 Oct 45. based on Kurt's info, I believe the PH was awarded to him some time after his discharge in 1946. Also interesting is the AM pictured above with identical engraving. It is currently running on Ebay with transmittal documents from 1946.

[Kadet]

Had a minute and thought I would post this for any thoughts or comments. I would especially value insight from someone who has other separation documents for POWs. I'm curious how POW status and POW campaign credits were recorded. From the documentation in his separation record, I can find no indication that Safrath spent any significant time as a POW, despite the documentation in NARA and on several websites. Safrath's company was cut off. Many members filtered back to friendly lines over several days, while others were captured or killed. I feel that Safrath was MIA and presumed captured, but ended up making it back to his unit, OR was captured and escaped. From my understanding of the rules surrounding these separation documents, POW status would typically be included on the document. Likewise, the Central Europe campaign credit makes no sense for someone captured in Italy and incarcerated at Stalag III for the duration (POWs were not supposed to receive campaign credit for their time in prison, so his last campaign credit should be from Italy). the 504th missed Normandy, but participated in Market Garden. Safrath's document is missing credit for this campaign however (Rhineland)...why? By most accounts, Safrath served w/ the 504th at Anzio, yet this campaign credit is missing as well. But Rome Arno is included. The PH is official hand engraving from the 1946 era, so it post dates the separation document. The Bronze Star appears to coincide w/ the document, and I believe it to be a CIB conversion award. He must have been awarded both of these medals after the war. He also applied for the NYS medal in 1978, so it stands to reason that he may have pursued a POW medal when they were created in 1985, yet this medal wasn't w/ the group. Also, the close out date on his POW status is after the date that he returned to the US.

 

Then there are wings/stars. The badge gives every appearance of being a period piece, and was clearly glued in to the display w/ the rest of the medals.

[Kadet]

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[Kadet]

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[MWalsh]

What you noted about him being back in the USA before the date that shows up as his final date on his POW records lends credence to the notion that date is simply the one used / listed due to it being the date they closed out his case. That'd jive with what I noted in my one post about the "caution" in the POW records when it comes to that date and using it to define anything.

 

On the Central Europe campaign credit issue, that campaign was listed to have run 22 March to 11 May of 1945. It is entirely possible that he was liberated within the time period and spent a period within those dates in Central Europe, free and not as a POW since he had been liberated or had escaped when things fell apart in Germany. THAT may explain that campaign credit. He was there, in Central Europe, during those dates, and thus it was recorded as a "campaign" on his records. Entirely plausable.

 

MW

[Kadet]

What you noted about him being back in the USA before the date that shows up as his final date on his POW records lends credence to the notion that date is simply the one used / listed due to it being the date they closed out his case. That'd jive with what I noted in my one post about the "caution" in the POW records when it comes to that date and using it to define anything.

 

On the Central Europe campaign credit issue, that campaign was listed to have run 22 March to 11 May of 1945. It is entirely possible that he was liberated within the time period and spent a period within those dates in Central Europe, free and not as a POW since he had been liberated or had escaped when things fell apart in Germany. THAT may explain that campaign credit. He was there, in Central Europe, during those dates, and thus it was recorded as a "campaign" on his records. Entirely plausable.

 

MW

 

Some very good points Mike, although I would have expected his POW service to be listed on the separation document. i recently tracked down his daughter, and have sent her an email. hopefully she will respond and provide more info!

[manayunkman]

Twice I’ve received wings from vets with extra stars on them.

 

Neither vet could sort out why.