possibily a real MACV SOG modified JJ on E@@y right now

[Andrei]

(...) just because a piece isn't identified, does that make it any less rare or valuable? No, it doesn't the pieces stand on thier own merits. Just like Hulka's jungle jacket.

Bob said it all.

The realized price will be the value this kind of jacket worth for now. One lucky French member of this forum bought a similar one from Hulka years ago at an incredible bargain price :pinch:

This jacket looks every bit the real thing as all the military items sold by Hulka.

[marentius]

It's never been my intention to cast ANY kind of shadows on the seller's reputation.I posted the item willing to know opinions from other Forum members.it's a pity that the discussion has derailed from its initial goal.

The opinion i had when I first saw the jacket has been somehow strenghtened from what i have read,questions and doubts included.

We are ALL talking about this jungle jacket and no other issue,that's what i assume.Everybody is right in his/her standpoint.

O and Bob and Andrei for example just to name few of the contributors to this topic(by the way,posting their names together is only due to the fact that they have +/- the same opinion!)they do believe the jj is original and it's with great probability a SOG modified item.

MFT is also right,if this specimen could have some kind of certified provenance (and I am not talking about the seller,is it clear?I am talking about vet directly giving it away,or a named item or whatever you could think about)then we would probably see it going for bigger $$$$$$,even if now,with less than 10 hours before the end of the auction the price is already more than 1 K and its historical value would be different from that of a piece that almost surely ".'s been there done that".

In the end it's always the great question that we have to face many many times :buy the item or the story?here we have a nice original item but its history can only be desumed,as it's always the case with not "certified" items.The item is original and it's been heavily modified a long time ago and it can be seen from the good quality pics and it's confirmed by those who have had more than one chance to handle these kind of items and from books and original pictures of that time.I have never had until now the chance to handle one real specimen,and living in Europe (south of it by the way)probably I'll have very few chances to find such an item in a fleemarket or yard sale.

On the other hand no provenance at all,we could go on discussimg until the end of the world if it's seen use as a MACV SOG piece or not.

i don't think in this case the truth is one and only,IMHO yes it is a SOG piece even if i cannot be 100% sure,but then it's only an opinion and as such it can be easily confronted.

We know that being it SOG or not SOG makes a lot of difference,being it the final price each of us would be willing to pay and,as MFT wrote,the historic value of the piece.Then it's up to each of us the final decision,what value give to it,if it should be considered the sacre Graal of a collection or only an heavily field modified jj that saw a lot of use.

same things for what each of us prefers to focus on.Collecting militaria is a free world,where there are no rules to which someone has to strictly adhere in order to consider him/herself and to be considered a collector.Too many variables are to bevalued, for example the time and money we can offer to our passion,what is the focus of our collecting,if we have the need or not to go "deep" in the subject,how we organize and arrange the items etcetc you name it.So between the two extremes of only items with historical confirmed background or all of everything there is an unlimited range of ways to be a collector.

I regret mainly two things:

1- a long time contributor to this Forum (Guy)decided to leave the forum,it's a pity and i hope he'll change his mind.

2-The confrontation between we (european) and you the americans,mainly the californian guys:well i am part of this subtle confrontation and I am going to explain why.

I do really ENVY the tremendously bigger chances you have to find VN war related items directly from the sources,in comparison to what i can find here.I used to collect ww2 items and it was easier to find nice original and many times really great items but then i got caught by the VN interest and here I am,at the bottom of the line,sitting far away from the main banquet table waiting for others to find items and then to sell either on e@@y or on their web pages,sigh....just trying to make things more relaxed on this topic,i guess there are already too many stressful things in real life and since this is an hobby for me,although involving some times quite good amounts of money,I want it to maintain its character of interest in history,knwoledge and even the chance to meet fellows from all over the world with whom to share the same interest in a great way. I am not interested at all in ficticiuous controversy,better spare my energy and my time for more serious issues.

[Beau-Brummel]

Marentius,

 

that was very well put and eminently sensible, thank you my friend.

 

I don't really understand how people have chosen to see this as a dealer bashing or "hating" thread but If I derailed Marentius's thread I sincerely apologise.

 

Just for clarification as some people seem to have either twisted my words or to have not understood my point; I have never, nor would I ever cast aspersions on the character or stock of Sgt Hulka. As I've said time and again he is a nice fellow who sells some amazing Items, I purely took Issue with peole making cast Iron statements about an Item being used by SOG when there was no provenance.

 

I always thought I was a fairly lucid Individual who could communicate well, obviously I was mistaken and must have chosen my words badly for such a furore to erupt. Again, how people have seen this as an attack on Hulka or the Item Is beyond me, however they have chosen to and for that I am sorry.

 

Guy.

[MFT3]

Marentius,

 

that was very well put and eminently sensible, thank you my friend.

 

I don't really understand how people have chosen to see this as a dealer bashing or "hating" thread but If I derailed Marentius's thread I sincerely apologise.

 

Just for clarification as some people seem to have either twisted my words or to have not understood my point; I have never, nor would I ever cast aspersions on the character or stock of Sgt Hulka. As I've said time and again he is a nice fellow who sells some amazing Items, I purely took Issue with peole making cast Iron statements about an Item being used by SOG when there was no provenance.

 

I always thought I was a fairly lucid Individual who could communicate well, obviously I was mistaken and must have chosen my words badly for such a furore to erupt. Again, how people have seen this as an attack on Hulka or the Item Is beyond me, however they have chosen to and for that I am sorry.

 

Guy.

 

Guy, I understood you completely. You have obviously been educated in the scientific method, a thought process that has led the Western world to the height of civilization. The reason people are upset with you is that they do not understand this method of thinking. They think that if you question their thoughts or something they own, you are questioning their qualities as a human being. I know that you are looking for the truth and authenticity concerning the items you collect, and from this truth, you can piece together the larger historical events. You, and myself, would never have this cross border jacket in our collections, not because it is not authentic, but that it would not contribute any knowledge or historical perspective for us.

Don't quit this forum! I quit it once because I was being attacked through my private email for my thoughts. Mistake. For these forums to work, the members must learn to listen to ideas they initially don't agree with.

Don't soften your words! Your thoughts are lucid. It's the other guys problem!

[kammo-man]

Mike ,

 

other guys problems ........please explain.

 

Guy ,

You are back .......yea baby .

What other jacket are you talking about .....?..you have NOT answered me .....

But had no problems throwing it out there.

Are you going to ?

 

 

 

I met with Hulka this morning and talked about the jacket .

He found it at the Rose Bowl last week 3 rows away from me late in the day .......

I wished him well , this is a real SOG jacket and does not come around very often and its exciting for the collecting community when something as rare like this comes along.

 

owen

[MFT3]

Mike ,

 

other guys problems ........please explain.

 

Guy ,

You are back .......yea baby .

What other jacket are you talking about .....?..you have NOT answered me .....

But had no problems throwing it out there.

Are you going to ?

I met with Hulka this morning and talked about the jacket .

He found it at the Rose Bowl last week 3 rows away from me late in the day .......

I wished him well , this is a real SOG jacket and does not come around very often and its exciting for the collecting community when something as rare like this comes along.

 

owen

Owen, in an open forum, if someone can not present a logical rebuttal to your thoughts, it is obviously the other person's problem.

[Spike]

"You, and myself, would never have this cross border jacket in our collections, not because it is not authentic, but that it would not contribute any knowledge or historical perspective for us."

 

W.T.F.???????????????????????

[bravo_2_zero]

I met with Hulka this morning and talked about the jacket .

He found it at the Rose Bowl last week 3 rows away from me late in the day .......

I wished him well , this is a real SOG jacket and does not come around very often and its exciting for the collecting community when something as rare like this comes along.

 

owen

 

What was the magic figure he paid for this baby just out of interest ?

 

Eric

[kammo-man]

Knowing the rack it came from probably about the same I paid for the Splinter German camouflage smock type 3 from the same row a few years back .

I paid $15 .

 

Thanks Mike .

 

 

owen

[bravo_2_zero]

Pin drop moment

 

I'll be hitting the carboots this season but the pickings will not be as rich.

 

Happy hunting

 

Eric

[kammo-man]

A quick Rose Bowl shot where the jacket was found ,

 

see the military on the right ........

 

The whole flea market has racks of military everywhere .

 

owen

[kammo-man]

There is stuff everywhere ,

see the military ?

[bravo_2_zero]

Anyways what with people wanting proof ?

 

The nature of is garment and the person wearing were as the nature of the role proof less.

[kammo-man]

You find some old military there in the weirdist places .

[bravo_2_zero]

My idea of heaven !!!!! What an exciting place to visit.

Eric

[bravo_2_zero]

You find some old military there in the weirdist places .

Authentic Area 51 stretcher with real alien eBay eBay eBay eBay !!!!!!! Who needs SOG jackets when you get that on eBay

Eric

[Corpsmancollector]

Great shots O, always like seeing pics of the Rosebowl.

 

Any good finds at Inspiration?

 

Just over an hour left and a shade over $1,000...

 

Will

[Mike Force]

Nice pics.!

I love fleamarkets you can always find good stuff for peanuts!!

[kammo-man]

Will ,

Nothing mate , but did stay on the Queen Mary for the night , got a killer set of Tigers at the same bowl this SOG jacket came out of from the same grouping that the 5 sets came from that hit a few months ago ,VERY happy with it indeed and a pair of Beo-gams .

 

Hunting hunting .

 

owen

[MFT3]

Will ,

Nothing mate , but did stay on the Queen Mary for the night , got a killer set of Tigers at the same bowl this SOG jacket came out of from the same grouping that the 5 sets came from that hit a few months ago ,VERY happy with it indeed and a pair of Beo-gams .

 

Hunting hunting .

 

owen

Good for you Owen! How many rooms are on the Queen Mary?

[kammo-man]

No idea Mike , hundreds ? thousands ?

 

Nice and pretty though , with your own porthole , or if you spend a bit more a .....few port holes .

Any one good at math , you can do some counting ....in the background is the Gray Ghost .

[MFT3]

"You, and myself, would never have this cross border jacket in our collections, not because it is not authentic, but that it would not contribute any knowledge or historical perspective for us."

 

W.T.F.???????????????????????

Spike, you did not understand the whole paragraph I wrote? An artifact is not history. History is the study of the continuing change of human events and circumstances. If an inanimate artifact can provide a greater understanding of a human event, then that artifact has historical perspective. If one finds a jungle jacket at a Rose Bowl flea market with no provenance, it provides zero understanding of any era it came from. It is fine if you want to collect items that you feel came from a certain time period, but do not try to claim the items have any historical perspective that means anything more than where you found them.

Do you have a clearer understanding now?

[doyler]

Nice pics O!!

 

Looked like a great day in Cali.

 

Sun,stacks of mil stuff,pretty girls.Perfect day

 

As for the jacket,I would take it any day.Named or not.You never see them here at all.How many have disappeared into the sands of time through neglect,wear,thrift shops,rag mills etc??Never to be seen again.

 

All the hype about "provenance"makes me puke.Provenance can be created if a person has the right stuff.When a cased plain purple heart comes with a WW2 group from a dealer or another collector is it actually the one that the veteran was awarded/recieved??or added to inhance the sale??? How do you know...you dont and cant prove it other than possibly trying to trace back where or how it was found but in most cases it cant be done...period.You either buy it as is or for the sum of the parts.Dont get me wrong or put me in the cross hairs,named stuff is nice but its not always the case.Like a post I made in a helmet thread once:In a perfect world the vet would have taken a picture of his helmet every two months as there would be a collector who would want it in 70 years...just didnt happen as they had other things on thier minds and didnt really care.Of all the WW1 camo helmets out there how many are named or have pictures of the owner wearing said camo helmet???I can recall walking into estate sales,farm auctions and shows back in the early 70s with my dad and buying said helmets(often from the veteran or his widow)Yes we asked if there were a picture of the man in uniform or other items but there were never any photos we found of the vet wearing said camoed helmet.Does this make it any less real or original?I Dont think so.Make it worth more or less money...not to me.How many times do we see a uniform with a name only and no ribbons??Upon doing research you find out he was a Silver Star/Navy Cross/DSC etc reciepiant.So it gets rebuilt.How original is that??Makes for a nice display but its not original but will sell for a good amount and not something that was worn at the time of the deed that merited such awards.My point here is you have "made" the provenance by getting the records,replacing the ribbons etc.Some will even add cased awards to round out the display.So whats really in a name??Like I said its nice but not a deal breaker for me if the piece stands on its own.

 

Besides isnt it well known that SOG items were not named due to operating in areas where we were not supose to be??Granted if it came with his badged out Jungle fatiques,dress uniform or medals and certigficates it would have a name or identity but is there a 100 percent proof the un-named shirt is the vets??Maybe he picked it up out of the laundy??We can only assume if it came with other items it was his on the other hand it may not be and he just picked it up as his "original"was worn out.If this jacket had a name inked in it and traced back to a SOG operator then the whole arument would be its a Camp jacket and not a border jumper as they WOULD NEVER put their name in a jacket worn across the fence.Where does it end.It dont.Its simple either enjoy the jacket for what it is or dont.

[Corpsmancollector]

For reference gents;

 

[Spy vs Spy]

Nice pictures Owen.

 

Well said Doyler.

 

Regards//Martin