Final rank at discharge

[lastpost]

I've been doing a bit of research on a friend's father who served as a medic in World War II. He is no longer with us so I can not ask him but thought I'd post this question here to get some opinions on the question I have. His discharge states that he held the rank of private first class when he mustered out in December 1946. His WD AGO states that his highest grade held was T-4. My first thought was that he must have done something to lose his T-4 grade but the WD AGO form states that he was still entitled to his Good Conduct Medal which would seem to negate this possibility. Could he have received his T-4 grade as a temporary appointment and reverted back to his last regular rank when discharged? Any thoughts?

 

Thanks

[Justin B.]

^Yes, it could very well have been a temporary thing that didn't last, rather than being "busted" as punishment of some kind. Which WD-AGO form is it? The AGO 53s are kind of a summary and sometimes don't show all the ins-and-out for rank and/or MOS. If you can get an AGO-100 it should show every grade and dates held, as well as changes in MOS. Good luck in your research!

 

Justin B.

[lastpost]

^Yes, it could very well have been a temporary thing that didn't last, rather than being "busted" as punishment of some kind. Which WD-AGO form is it? The AGO 53s are kind of a summary and sometimes don't show all the ins-and-out for rank and/or MOS. If you can get an AGO-100 it should show every grade and dates held, as well as changes in MOS. Good luck in your research!

 

Justin B.

 

Naturally it is a WD AGO 53. Being that he still had his good conduct medal my guess was that he did hold a temp appoinment at the T-4 grade.

[Jeeper704]

Some guys deliberately got themselves busted down.

I have information on a Corporal (stateside) who got himself deliberately busted down to Private so he could be at the frontline (and promptly got himself a Bronze Star there!).

 

Erwin

[seanmc1114]

I could be wrong, but I don't think any disciplinary action that occurred after a soldier received the Good Conduct Medal would result in the medal being revoked. I think it just created a break in the qualifying period for the next award of the medal.

 

Also, I'm not sure about WWII, but when my father was discharged in 1969, his DD-214 reflects his rank as Sergeant E-5 (T) with a notation in a lower section that that his permanent rank was PFC E-3. He had graduated from the NCO course at Ft. Benning. All candidates in the course were promoted to Corporal at the beginning of the course and promoted to Sergeant or Staff Sergeant upon completion. But apparently those ranks were only temporary. I think the reasoning was that once the war was over and the Army shrunk to its peacetime size, it would be top-heavy with junior NCO's and captains unless they reverted to their permanent ranks. I think they called the program Reduction In Force.

 

In fact, many officers during the war were reduced to NCO's in the 70's. One of my father's platoon leaders in Vietnam eventually made it to Major during the war, but after the war ended he was reduced to Staff Sergeant. He stayed in the Army and eventually made Master Sergeant by the time he retired. However, he receives retirement pay at the highest rank he had held during his service - Major. Crazy.

[seanmc1114]

To follow up and clarify on my previous post, even during WWII, units had certain slots and positions that had to be filled from within their ranks due to deaths and other casualties, and temporary promotions could be made based on these. For the most part, at least with regard to enlisted men, these vacancies would not be filled by transfers from outside of a unit. For example, if a squad leader, which normally carried the rank of Staff Sergeant, was wounded and evacuated from his rifle company, a Corporal or PFC may be promoted from within the company to fill his position. He could be awarded the temporary rank to go along with the position. However, from the Army's standpoint, if he didn't have enough time in service and in his grade to rate the rank, he would revert to his permanent rank at the end of the war if he stayed in the service and his documents at his discharge would reflect both his permanent rank and the highest temporary rank he held.

 

A perfect example of this situation was Carwood Lipton from "Band Of Brothers". He started out as a private in 1942 and was given the permanent promotion to PFC during training. By the time of the Normandy invasion, he had been made a Staff Sergeant squad leader based on the leadership he displayed in training. Because of vacancies in his company due to casualties, by the fall of 1944 he was made company First Sergeant, a rank and position that usually took years to achieve in the peacetime Army.

 

In your father's case, most medics I have seen from WWII tended to be Technicians in grades 4 and 5. His T-4 rank may have been more reflective of his position within the unit than his permanent rank of PFC that was based on his time in service.

[lastpost]

To follow up and clarify on my previous post, even during WWII, units had certain slots and positions that had to be filled from within their ranks due to deaths and other casualties, and temporary promotions could be made based on these. For the most part, at least with regard to enlisted men, these vacancies would not be filled by transfers from outside of a unit. For example, if a squad leader, which normally carried the rank of Staff Sergeant, was wounded and evacuated from his rifle company, a Corporal or PFC may be promoted from within the company to fill his position. He could be awarded the temporary rank to go along with the position. However, from the Army's standpoint, if he didn't have enough time in service and in his grade to rate the rank, he would revert to his permanent rank at the end of the war if he stayed in the service and his documents at his discharge would reflect both his permanent rank and the highest temporary rank he held.

 

A perfect example of this situation was Carwood Lipton from "Band Of Brothers". He started out as a private in 1942 and was given the permanent promotion to PFC during training. By the time of the Normandy invasion, he had been made a Staff Sergeant squad leader based on the leadership he displayed in training. Because of vacancies in his company due to casualties, by the fall of 1944 he was made company First Sergeant, a rank and position that usually took years to achieve in the peacetime Army.

 

In your father's case, most medics I have seen from WWII tended to be Technicians in grades 4 and 5. His T-4 rank may have been more reflective of his position within the unit than his permanent rank of PFC that was based on his time in service.

 

This all fits in with what I thought might be the case. Kind of like what happend to Custer after the Civil War - dropping back to his substinative rank of Lt. Col from his wartime rank of Brig. Gen.

[GIl Sanow]

Actually, I think Custer was Major General 'of Volunteers' -- a temporary wartime promotion that ended when the war was over and volunteers were discharged.

Sometime promotions then were 'brevets' -- given for heroism in combat, but this did not necessarily mean the person was given the authority of higher rank.

 

G

[theschneid88]

I have seen that a couple of times myslef, the most extreme was at time of seperation he was a PFC, but highest rank Held was T/Sgt. Yet again the discharge was honorable and had a good conduct medal. The gent was a tank mechanic, and from what I was told wound up in charge of a maintenence platoon once he went overseas, but when he got back reverted back to PFC and was discharged.

[seanmc1114]

I have seen that a couple of times myslef, the most extreme was at time of seperation he was a PFC, but highest rank Held was T/Sgt. Yet again the discharge was honorable and had a good conduct medal. The gent was a tank mechanic, and from what I was told wound up in charge of a maintenence platoon once he went overseas, but when he got back reverted back to PFC and was discharged.

As I mentioned earlier, Carwood Lipton of "Band Of Brothers" fame went from Private to First Sergeant in basically two years. The NCO ranks were appointments made within his company, but he certainly did not have the time in service or grade to be permanently promoted to those ranks, He was then given a battlefield commission. As I understand it, at least during WWII, when an enlisted man was commissioned, either through OCS or as a battlefield commission, he was given a discharge from his enlisted status with all of the accompanying discharge documents prepared and then commissioned as an officer either the same day or perhaps the next day. My grandfather did the same thing in the 50's when he joined the National Guard as an enlisted man and was commissioned a few months later. For all I know, that's still how they do it.

 

It would be interesting to see if anyone might have a copy of Carwood Lipton's enlisted discharge being that he is sort of a celebrity and I know there are folks on this forum who write of to the government and collect such paperwork. My guess is that his discharge from enlisted status would show his highest rank held as First Sergeant but his permanent rank as PFC.

[ge999]

If you look at people's whose career spanned two wars (like Patton, and many Civil War officers) they had their permanent rank and a wartime rank. The difference between the 2 could sometime be enormous. The Civil War is a a better illustration of this happening; when a colonel or major was killed and they needed someone to replace their spot a major could be temporarily advanced to the rank of bird colonel. During the Civil war getting a permanent promotion in your rank was a very big deal; as they knew at wars end what rank they would revert to.

[bummer]

My 1st Sgt in Alaska Held the rank of e-8 active duty and 0-4 in the reserves,I assume he would retire at the highest grade