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M1 Fixed Bale with Hawley Liner Possible D-Day Helmet Markings


LetsGo82nd
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That one seems to have an ASN on the straps If you could find the original owner was in fact on the beaches during D-day might lend more to your thought of yours possibly being a d-day lid.

 

The picker said he would go back through his records and attempt to locate the man's name, hopefully he will be able to and make all of this a lot easier. The picker did how ever remember being told by the veteran he bought it from that he used it on D-Day, not rock solid evidence but I don't see why he would have made it up either as the helmet didn't have a big price tag on it. Until then it is worth a shot to try to research the laundry number from the other helmet in hopes of identifying a unit. -Jeremy

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I imagine it is some kind of landing helmet I saw a post on another site just the other day mentioning red bands if I can find the link I will post it.

 

Cool thanks for letting me know. :thumbsup: -Jeremy

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Since there seems to be two conversations going on at the same time saying the same thing because of replies I'm just going to say GOOD LUCK!! :thumbsup: And let us know what you find out!

 

-jamie

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  • 7 months later...

There is without doubt a red band. I've had the lid for sometime now, but just now getting to uncovering it. There was some white under the red too, as you can see..

 

b8f5cf49.jpg

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There are remnants of of blue grey over the red and into the green in a band. They are hard to see in a picture. Yours also could have better pictures for viewing.

post-8222-1347972860.jpg

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There are remnants of of blue grey over the red and into the green in a band. They are hard to see in a picture. Yours also could have better pictures for viewing.

post-8222-1347973025.jpg

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There is without doubt a red band. I've had the lid for sometime now, but just now getting to uncovering it. There was some white under the red too, as you can see..

 

b8f5cf49.jpg

 

:( Having had this helmet in hand I am quite certain that the repaint on this one which covered up the red band was period applied. It is obviously your helmet to do with as you please but I can't help but think the historical integrity of this helmet has been compromised by removing a period applied repaint. I have unfortunately made a similar decision in the past on a lacquered German helmet which I almost immediately regretted -Jeremy

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:( Having had this helmet in hand I am quite certain that the repaint on this one which covered up the red band was period applied. It is obviously your helmet to do with as you please but I can't help but think the historical integrity of this helmet has been compromised by removing a period applied repaint. I have unfortunately made a similar decision in the past on a lacquered German helmet which I almost immediately regretted -Jeremy

 

 

Each to their own, but I have had a few lids that had overpaint removed to show what was painted previously underneath.

 

 

vette, I know it is not the best, but was 0300'ish when I took the photo.

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From the pictures it looks like you didn't remove all of the paint. Is is possible the rest of the helmet isn't red? That would make it damage control and with white maybe used before in snow? If just a red band it could very likely be D-Day. The green is under the red and blue remnants so not much left on mine, just worn off from time

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From the pictures it looks like you didn't remove all of the paint. Is is possible the rest of the helmet isn't red? That would make it damage control and with white maybe used before in snow? If just a red band it could very likely be D-Day. The green is under the red and blue remnants so not much left on mine, just worn off from time

 

It is just the red band, the rest of the helmet is still OD under the black over paint. It is showing through in places.

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Since mine has a worn red band with remnants of blue grey it is likely D-Day and that would explain yours Jeremy. The name inside mine has not been found in N.A.R.A. Maybe medical shore duty without a cross? Bill

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I'm sorry, did I miss something? Why woudl a red band mean D-Day? I mean, the regs for the Navy call specifically for gray. NOT red. I have talked to the guys who painted them. I have held original copies of the orders in my hands and talked to the officers who oversaw that their men did what they were supposed to. I have never, ever ever seen anything mentioning red bands in any type of amphibious invasion. Making the leap from 7th NBB red is just, well, quite astonishing- and seeing as how I am the guy that did all that research to begin with I think I might have a clue as to what I am talking about. I meam, come on guys, wishing is one thing, but making a leap to d-day is just downright silly.

 

Over the many MANY years the M1 helmet was used there have been zillions of simple markings painted on helmets that mean many different things. Most of them quite mundane like positions at schools, or range officers, or firemen, or you name it. The number of helmets painted up for comat reason, such as D-day, are very few. There have been times I have sorted through stacks of helmets way back when, and there were all kinds of bands, circles, squares, lines, numbers, and oddball initials. When they were sent to be recycyled they were just sprayed over in OD. (I even have photos of them doing this in the ETO).

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I'm sorry, did I miss something? Why woudl a red band mean D-Day? I mean, the regs for the Navy call specifically for gray. NOT red. I have talked to the guys who painted them. I have held original copies of the orders in my hands and talked to the officers who oversaw that their men did what they were supposed to. I have never, ever ever seen anything mentioning red bands in any type of amphibious invasion. Making the leap from 7th NBB red is just, well, quite astonishing- and seeing as how I am the guy that did all that research to begin with I think I might have a clue as to what I am talking about. I meam, come on guys, wishing is one thing, but making a leap to d-day is just downright silly.

 

Over the many MANY years the M1 helmet was used there have been zillions of simple markings painted on helmets that mean many different things. Most of them quite mundane like positions at schools, or range officers, or firemen, or you name it. The number of helmets painted up for comat reason, such as D-day, are very few. There have been times I have sorted through stacks of helmets way back when, and there were all kinds of bands, circles, squares, lines, numbers, and oddball initials. When they were sent to be recycyled they were just sprayed over in OD. (I even have photos of them doing this in the ETO).

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I guess we jump too quickly into thinking we have that special helmet. Jdawne is right about how many times a WW2 helmet has been painted in its life time and for many uses. The red band means something and maybe in time we will find our what it is. Unfortunately black and white photos do not show colors. My helmet should be an example of a possible red banded D-Day or earlier since there was blue gray spots of paint over the red band. Just for the books.

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I understand the frustration in regards to" D-Day" and people wanting throw that term out there. Lets step it up one more level to a peeve of mine then...........Which "D-Day"? In the Pacific, Europe, Mediterranean, CBI?? There were many "D-days", for the US in WW2.. and since. The term "D-day" has been hijacked in such a fashion, that every swingin richard and their brother use it to describe the landings in Normandy. Every major operation has a "D-Day". Heck, I've been in a "D-Day"! Maybe I should call myself a D-Day veteran :pinch:

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I'm sorry, did I miss something? Why woudl a red band mean D-Day? I mean, the regs for the Navy call specifically for gray. NOT red

 

I have to agree with this statement

Regards

Zeke

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The story I got with this helmet from the picker who sold it to me was that it came from a Polish-American "D-Day Veteran". True there were many D-Days but I believe in regards to this helmet that the picker's story was referring to Operation Overlord. That being said, that doesn't say with any kind of certainty that the red band was applied for Operation Overlord. Having had this helmet set in hand I am 100% certain that the liner and shell are original to each other. In my experience I don't think that Hawley liners were used in a great number post WW2 as they simply didn't last. So that would leave me to believe that this helmet and liner "were" in its original WW2 configuration which would take out any chance of the red band being applied post WW2. The repaint on this lid was 100% period done. Was it applied for training in the states, for operation Overlord, for a training exercise in England, ... I don't know.

 

I really wish I could have gotten more information but it simply wasn't available. Jamie's helmet showed a very similar pattern with the red band around the base of the helmet shell, the other helmet posted in this thread had a red band around the mid section of the shell, and I don't think that helmet relates to either of the other two helmets at all.

 

Did this helmet see action during Operation Overlord? I don't know. I think the possibility exists. Was the red band applied for the invasion, who knows, that is much harder to prove. What this helmet "was" is a fixed bail M1 with matching Hawley liner, it had a WW2 applied repaint to the shell which covered up a red band and as it appears now a gray band beneath that.

 

On another note I also collect German and Japanese WW2 helmets. In the arena of German helmet collecting it was popular practice DECADES ago to uncover decals beneath period applied camo or reissue paint. In German helmet collecting helmets with these "dug out" and exposed decals are not nearly as collectible. The fact that the decals were exposed post war significantly lowers their value.

 

In the US helmet collecting arena I see this practice almost encouraged. Dust in liners being cleaned out and in the case of this helmet period applied reissue paint being removed to expose earlier paint jobs. I understand that US helmets were used for decades after WW2 and were repainted many times. I really don't see a problem with a post war paint job being removed from a helmet if it is done correctly but if you are removing a WW2 applied paint job the only thing being removed is the helmets authenticity and history.

 

If you watch any kind of show about antiques on TV they always discourage cleaning or altering these items. Why as US helmet collectors should we not follow these same guidelines?

 

This isn't a personal attack on anyone and I respect that your property is your property and you can do whatever you want with it. Just saying that as collector's of historical items that maybe we should get with the times.

 

-Jeremy

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Dirt Detective
On another note I also collect German and Japanese WW2 helmets. In the arena of German helmet collecting it was popular practice DECADES ago to uncover decals beneath period applied camo or reissue paint. In German helmet collecting helmets with these "dug out" and exposed decals are not nearly as collectible. The fact that the decals were exposed post war significantly lowers their value.

 

In the US helmet collecting arena I see this practice almost encouraged. Dust in liners being cleaned out and in the case of this helmet period applied reissue paint being removed to expose earlier paint jobs. I understand that US helmets were used for decades after WW2 and were repainted many times. I really don't see a problem with a post war paint job being removed from a helmet if it is done correctly but if you are removing a WW2 applied paint job the only thing being removed is the helmets authenticity and history.

 

If you watch any kind of show about antiques on TV they always discourage cleaning or altering these items. Why as US helmet collectors should we not follow these same guidelines?

 

This isn't a personal attack on anyone and I respect that your property is your property and you can do whatever you want with it. Just saying that as collector's of historical items that maybe we should get with the times.

 

-Jeremy

 

You have said what I have been thinking for a while..I think US painted helmets are very rare and collectors will do almost anything to have one. Not a good practice to try and have an original WWII painted lid.

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I don't think anyone can see in my picture any blue/grey spots over the red band. Very little od it is left. My camera is failing me. I will try and provide some better pics. What it means is that the blue/grey was lastly painted over the red. Some time before Operation Overlord the red was applied just as Jeremy is saying. I am not trying to belittle the experts opinions. I respect opinions. Bill

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