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B)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Allan B @ Jan 7 2007, 04:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->

Hi,

 

You see .45 holsters for sale which are maker marked, but are not dated and listed as WW2. How do you know they were made pre end of WW2, if they are undated?

 

Regards

 

Allan

The matter is quite complicated if you want to know the year of production (or the fiscal year) cause each manifacturer of WWII M1916s has his own method. I'd say WWI holster are easier to detect cause most bear the year and all inspector initials, moreover some markings are under the flap instead on leather attachement. Being only exception the WWII G.P.&S.

Since a couple weeks I started to download every marking I can see on ebay pics just to have a little database. It's even easy to detect post WWII holsters because the first after war production is from the fifthies. Consequently it's not too difficult say if an holster is a WWII but for the year you have to know some attitudes i.e.

Boyt holsters always have the the year while Sears stamps only the 1942 and Graton&knight only 1943. Enger Kress indicates only 1942 and not later production while Milwakee Saddlery indicates only 1944 and 1945 and not the years before. Warren Leather Goods only 1944. In the pics there is a sample of these oddities.

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How come we see loads of boyt 42 and boyt44 holsters but no[i've not seen any]boyt43 holsters??

 

Dave.

Possibly because that year Boyt didn't get a contract for M1916s but for M3s. You can see also Boyt45 M1916s but you have to wait until 1950 to see another Boyt, a black BOYT50 for the USAAF.

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Hi,

 

Thank you very much for posting your reply. Are you saying that all post war holsters were produced in the 1950s (up until the 1950s they had enough WW2 or earlier made holsters in stores) and would have been black? All brown holsters are pre 1946 manufacture?

 

Regards

 

Allan

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Hey Dave/Allan B and Artu you see a LOT of BOYT 43 dated shoulder holsters...is there a connection in this ?

 

Artu has that G P & S holster got what looks like a British WD arrow mark on it.....that seems unusual !

 

Regards

 

Lloyd

What do you need another one of those for.....you have 6 of them already ?.........

:blink:

 

my girlfriend to me on a regular basis as another piece of US WW2 "Green stuff" aka militaria arrives in the post..:-)

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Think I saw one on a 2nd armored NCO from a friend of mine :unsure: Think I'll go to my friend's place tomorrow... (I could also be wrong, but I was with him when he bought it)

 

If it is a 43 dated one that would be interesting,I do see a lot of m3's by boyt though.

 

Dave.

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**PLEASE NOTE: THIS COMMUNITY MEMBER HAS SADLY PASSED AWAY**

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/61663-forum-member-bilkos-dave-death-reported/

 

 

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Be quiet guys, the matter requires some ordinate thinking.

-I'd say you cannot see M1916s BOYT43 because in that year they did produce the M3 shoulder holster model and not M1916s.

-Until about 1950 they didn't produce M1916s anymore cause the huge quantity of surplus WWII items.

- US holsters became black in 1956 having introduced the new black boots. Only USAAF ordered black holsters since 1950.

- A lot of WWI and WWII holsters of all kind were dyied black in 1956 to comply with new specs.

- G.P.&S. is to me the rarest of all WWII M1916s being australian made under a regular US contract and produced in the first month of war when US troops were deployed in Salomon Islands and Australia. You can find only another one in the hands of a forum buddy (but mine is nicer).

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  • 2 weeks later...

This is a quite hard to find M1916 from WWI. It's the second I see on ebay in three years. Too bad it was overoiled by past owners but at least I can admire that nice Mc Moonies marking. As you can see inspector's initials are repeated also on the flap near the brass stud. It's the second time I see a double inspector markings, being the first a Keyston Bros with the second initials beside the bottom grommet. My idea is those doublings could be acceptance of small defects cause this one has the hole in the flap a bit larger with no sign of abuse while the Keyston could have a poorly fixed grommet. Any idea?

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Gentlemen,

 

I have come across several US 1911 pistol holsters that have been carefully modified by removing the inside leather pad. Are these simply postwar John Q. Public type modifications or are they possibly something more official?

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Colt_45_holster.JPG

 

This is a rather standard wartime pistol holster with no outside modifications.

 

Colt_45_holster_markings.JPG

 

However, the inside pad has been removed to allow the 1911 to fit more closely to the hip, or an easier draw, or perhaps both. It is also possible that it was done to allow another pistol to fit into the holster.

 

Colt_45_holster_interior.JPG

 

What are your feelings about this sort of modificaiton?

 

Could it have been done during the actual period of use in order to make the pistol fit closer to the body? I have seen period photos where the pistol grip does ride very close to the body suggesting some similar holster modification.

 

Could it have been done during the actual period of use in order to carry a captured pistol such as a P.08, Browning HP, etc.? We all know that this occurred.

 

Could it have been done to allow Auxiliary MPs, Guards, etc. who carried revolvers to utilize the holster? In this case it would have been a semi-offical modification by the armorer or saddler.

"You can't please everyone so you have got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson

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I too have noticed a few holsters with the "pad" missing and did not think much of it. I worked part time in surplus stores in the 1960s and I've examined so much modified equipment that it would drive one nuts speculating why it was done. One element of this is that sometimes these items had use after the military disposed of them, and modification may have been later. I assumed that the military surplus I saw in the stores I worked in had in fact come from surplus sales that these items had been modified by someone in military service. It may have been the item(s) were classified for disposal because they had been modified.

 

Veterans are great sources of the why of equipment modified, but finding a veteran that has knowledge of a particular why is the proverbial needle in the haystack. Needles that have fading memories and ant are falling out of the haystack.

 

I acquired examples of a WWII Plastic Canteens and noticed a white crusted material inside one of them. Years later I was casually discussing a veteran’s experiences when he mentioned that they put baking powder inside the canteen to lessen the chemical smell and taste leeched into liquids.

 

I also noticed a mercurochrome smell to one of these canteens. In my research I found that Army specifications required the manufacturer to flush the canteen with Mercury to reduce the leeching of the objectionable odor and taste.

 

I did try putting a M1917 revolver into one of these modified pistol holsters and found it fit.

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Canteen Guru,

 

I agree with what you say. It seems logical to me to assume that the modified holsters that you saw while working in the surplus stores were in fact modified during the period of use by someone in the military. This sort of modification is much different than the typical civilian post-war modifications one sees. The John Q. Public mods of these military holsters seem to entail things like removing the wire hangers, cutting off the leather flap, or cutting down the front.

 

This sort of modification seems to be of the same type every time, not noticeable from the outside, and something that a soldier might actually do. I have also noticed that the two holsters like this that I have both show internal wear and use after the modification.

 

Just thinking out loud here.

"You can't please everyone so you have got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson

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I've experienced that put an M1911 in its holster is a pain in the nose, at least if the holster is mint. The slide will do an inch of rear travel and you have to push it into battery with your fingers and leave the hammer half cock or while you're putting the gun inside you have to maintain your thumb or a couple of fingers on the back of the slide. The same pain is draw the gun from the holster, you have to keep holster steady rock with the left hand otherwise it will follow the gun with no draw at all. I've read something about the official allowance to remove the wedge in the M1912s: Scott Meadows' book "US Military Holsters & Pistol Cartridge Boxes"(pg. 253,modification authorized on Feb. 21,1912).

Anyway from my point of view of lover and collector of US martial .45 holsters (no .38 sorry!) I'd never buy an holster incomplete or butchered.

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artu44,

 

Thanks for citing the Meadows book. I did not know that this was a specifically authorized modification. That is the one piece of information that I was looking for!

"You can't please everyone so you have got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson

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I was also looking at Meadows book for some answers to this question, and what I found is a little different than what artu is describing.

 

If you go back a few pages, on page 250 the quote in paragraph (3) FACILITY OF INSERTION AND WITHDRAWAL states:

 

"The socket of the holster has been very accurately formed to the shape of the barrel and a block or cushion of leather has been so placed at the mouth of holster that the butt of the pistol is held out from the back of the holster in such a way as to permit full grasp of the butt instantly. This feature is best demonstrated by actually withdrawing the pistol from the holster and inserting it again."

 

The reference to modifications on page 253 concerns a problem and a modifiction to the "handle rest" not the removal of it:

 

"On February 5, 1912, Lt. Col. George Montgomery, Commanding Officer at Frankford Arsenal, wrote to the Chief of Ordnance regarding a problem he had encountered with the new holster which further delayed production.

 

'...Upon using the holster with the model 1911 pistol it was discovered that the reinforce in the holster just opposite the the flap catch gave a pressure on the magazine catch of the pistol so that a slight squeeze on the holster or jolting the holster against the body, as might easily happen when in use, the magazine catch would be released and the magazine fall out.

 

It is suggested that the holster be modified by cutting away that part of the reinforcement that comes opposite the magazine catch when the pistol is in the holster.'

 

This communication was forwarded to Rock Island Arsenal for comment on February 7th. On February 15th a reply was sent to the Chief of ordnance.

 

'The following changes are recommended on the drawing of Pistol Holster, Model of 1912; for Auto. Pistol, Cal. .45, Model of 1911.

 

Body: drawing changed to a show a different form of handle rest.

 

Handle Rest: drawing changed in two places to show a notch cut in the handle rest.

 

Handle Rest Cover: drawing changed to show a notch cut in the handle rest cover.

 

Assembled View: drawing changed to show a notch cut in the handle rest and handle rest cover.

 

These changes are recommended because it is found that certain parts of the pistol interfere with the holster and there is danger of the ammunition being lost from the handle of the pistol. The change in the design is recommended to correct for this trouble. A sample holster has been made up and tried with a pistol and is found to function in a satisfactory manner.'

 

On February 21, 1912, the Chief of Ordnance notified the Commanding Officer at Rock Island that the recommended changes had been approved and production resumed."

 

As to why the entire "handle rest" has been removed on some holsters, I have no definitive answers, but believe they were field modifictions or civilian modifications to allow the holster to be used with other pistols as others have suggested here.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Steve

Collecting 3rd Armored Division items of all kinds from all eras, specializing in the 36th Armored Infantry Regiment.

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I found that info about Meadows book on ebay. The seller was offering an holster deprived of the rest then it's highly probable he would have reinterpretate pag.253 to suit his selling purposes.

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Ah, I can certainly see the self-serving interpretation by the ebay seller. Back to square one unless someone can find another official modification sheet.

 

An interesting discussion.

"You can't please everyone so you have got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson

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Artu-

 

I wasn't trying to make anyone look bad, just trying to present the whole story. I'm sorry if I came across a little harsh.

 

If the eBay seller is trying to use the Meadows book as a reference to modifications, then he either misinterpreted the info in the book, or is apparently trying to present "facts" to improve his chances of a sale. Shame on him if the latter is the case.

 

It is an interesting discussion, and that's one of the reasons I like this forum!

 

Steve

Collecting 3rd Armored Division items of all kinds from all eras, specializing in the 36th Armored Infantry Regiment.

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Artu-

 

I wasn't trying to make anyone look bad, just trying to present the whole story. I'm sorry if I came across a little harsh.

 

If the eBay seller is trying to use the Meadows book as a reference to modifications, then he either misinterpreted the info in the book, or is apparently trying to present "facts" to improve his chances of a sale. Shame on him if the latter is the case.

 

It is an interesting discussion, and that's one of the reasons I like this forum!

 

Steve

 

No looking bad and no harsh Steve, I'm only upset with that pickhead who put on the web wrong infos just for money, and with a fish like me who thought it could be true.

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