3" glider pilot wing possibly British manufacture

[Tonomachi]

I took a chance on this glider pilot wing from the UK through ebay. The photos looked good but once I received it in hand I'm not so sure and could use some help from the experts on the forum. The edges of this wing has this sort of folded line through it. I was hoping to see the striation marks for a die punches piece. There is also a line in the middle of the left inside wing. Is this a cast which means a copy? The buyer will accept returns so I could use some opinions on this piece.

[Tonomachi]

More photos

[Jack's Son]

My guess from the looks of the edges, that it has been cast. Could well have been made in the CBI theater, most probably India.

The hinge and catch are familiar as well to that area of manufacture.

[graham]

I would say a cast copy unfortunately. A real one would be plated brass. I susspect yours is a white metal [some kind of aloy] through out.

See what others have to say. But I would not buy one like it [again :crying: ]

 

Graham

[Sabrejet]

I agree with the comments above. Definitely a sand-cast wing and not one from a WW2 British workshop. As JS says, it could possibly be a CBI piece...but I wouldn't like to chance it, especially if you're into it for big bucks!

[pfrost]

I agree with the comments above. Definitely a sand-cast wing and not one from a WW2 British workshop. As JS says, it could possibly be a CBI piece...but I wouldn't like to chance it, especially if you're into it for big bucks!

 

Hello gentlemen,

 

I hate to be contrary, but I am more of the opinion that these are good wings. Its hard to know for sure by just looking at photos, but I see more positives than negatives.

 

First, these are JR Gaunt pattern wings (not sure that they were actually made by Gaunt, but it is of that pattern). These wings are in fact faked, so you do have to be very careful.

 

Second, I dont think they are cast. Look very carefully at the front of the shield where the lines are (especially around the "G"). They are all even, straight and distinct, from beginning to end. This is a VERY hard detail for casting to capture. That alone makes me think that these are die struck.

 

Third, the fake catches on these wings typically use a rectangular shaped bit of metal bent into a "U" shape, with no other modifications. The real ones have the same bar, but tend to have the end where the pin goes tapered to a rounded point.

 

Fourth, if you look carefully at the inside of the shield on the back of the wing (especially towards the top), you can see a fine line. The real wings I have, that seems to be the sign of a small indentation when the die was struck into the planchet. In hand, it should be sharp and relatively distinct (if rather fine) indentation, and is almost impossible for the casting process to capture. Also, I see another fine line on the top inside curve of the shoulders (again looking from the back)--I know where to look because I have a good Glider wing in this pattern sitting next to me as I type. These are very fine features and are hard to see unless you have a real wing in hand. However, they are also features that are impossible to capture by casting. Again, these two factors make me think this is a die struck wing.

 

Fifth, the edges don't look especially suspect to me--that is the way many wings look. To be fair, I usually don't use the edges as a strong diagnostic factor myself. I know many people disagree, but in my experience, the edges can lead you astray (usually by giving you false negatives). Lots of things happened to the edges of the wings during the processing and finishing of a piece. So, unless it is super obvious a sign of casting (and to me, these aren't that obviously a casting), I put less weight there.

 

Finally, the seam on the back wing looks more like a stress flaw during the striking process, not a casting flaw. sometime the metal planchet used had flaws in it, and it shows up in the final wing. Also, since the British were using pot metal for their wings and insignia during the war, you can find that these items get a bit more worn, dinged and corroded than sterling silver wings.

 

Finally, because the castings can be pretty good, the only way to really be 100% is to compare a good wing next to this one. They should be almost exactly the same dimensions if they are both good. A casting will be an small (but apparent) fraction smaller.

 

All in all, I wouldn't be to quick to toss this fine fellow in the dumpster. It is likely (IMHO) not a sand casting of a wing from the CBI-theater, in any case. It could be one of the more current fakes coming out of England using (as I understand the rumors) the original dies. Now, with many of the JR Gaunt pattern wings, you have to be very careful to avoid the fakes. Still, without handling it in person and comparing it side by side with other know good wings, I would tentatively say it looks ok to me. But that is just my opinion.

 

Patrick

[Tinman]

I agree with every point made by Patrick. I think the wing is OK also. Jim

[graham]

 

My Glider pilot for comparison. [please ignor the pilot wing. These are some pics I had handy] It is brass with a silver plate or wash. It has the features described by Patrick.

My concern with the wing posted by Tonomachi is the metal it is made from. All the good Brit wings I have seen have been plated brass. I cant see why wings could not have been made from a silver colored metal as they would not have needed plating. But I have seen many repro wings made from a solid silver colored alloy .

 

Graham

[pfrost]

 

My Glider pilot for comparison. [please ignor the pilot wing. These are some pics I had handy] It is brass with a silver plate or wash. It has the features described by Patrick.

My concern with the wing posted by Tonomachi is the metal it is made from. All the good Brit wings I have seen have been plated brass. I cant see why wings could not have been made from a silver colored metal as they would not have needed plating. But I have seen many repro wings made from a solid silver colored alloy .

 

Graham

 

The lighting may be funky. My glider wings are not plated (and I am pretty sure the base metal is not brass), they just have a silver paint/finish over some sort over a pot metal. I suspect if that were to be polished or worn off, you would find that the wings were of a similar metal.

 

Here is the front of my glider wing and a cast pilot wing, The marks show were the casting flaws exist in the lines of the shield. Notice the even finer detail in the glider wing is not at all distorted.

[pfrost]

The lighting may be funky. My glider wings are not plated (and I am pretty sure the base metal is not brass), they just have a silver paint/finish over some sort over a pot metal. I suspect if that were to be polished or worn off, you would find that the wings were of a similar metal.

 

Here is the front of my glider wing and a cast pilot wing, The marks show were the casting flaws exist in the lines of the shield. Notice the even finer detail in the glider wing is not at all distorted.

 

Here is the back. You can see the catch style differs between the good and bad wing, the size difference (the fake is just a fraction smaller), and the (just barely) places where I see the detail of the strike in the shoulder and shield. These aren't the greatest of photos, sorry.

 

I do hate to give away my "trade" secrets, but there they are.

[graham]

Here is the back. You can see the catch style differs between the good and bad wing, the size difference (the fake is just a fraction smaller), and the (just barely) places where I see the detail of the strike in the shoulder and shield. These aren't the greatest of photos, sorry.

 

I do hate to give away my "trade" secrets, but there they are.

 

Patrick, whatever the base metal your Glider wings are plated but the wings at the start of this thread look to be a white/silver color metal through out.

Perhaps Tonomachi could chime in here with what he thinks his wings are made from.

That line on back/left of Tonomachi's wing if raised could be the result of a hairline crack in an old and much used die. Something that has been noted in restrike British cap badges.

 

Graham

[Costa]

ok guys--- match it to this------------ whats your verdict on this brit glider?????

[Sabrejet]

This is warming up nicely. Keep it goin' fellas!

[Tonomachi]

Wow thanks everyone for their input on this wing! I've looked at this wing with a 16X jewelry loupe and can't locate any visible brass under a silver wash. It is a solid white metal but what kind I have no idea. I've taken some more photos using outdoor light instead of indoor lights from last evening. I noticed a single dot of metal on the left inside wing tip as well as two smaller dots of metal along the inside right shoulder which I guess could be part of the solder (splash?) from the attaching of the rear pin and catch.

[Tonomachi]

more photos

[graham]

Sorry Patrick, did not mean to contradict you. In my earlier post I said your wing is plated. Perhaps plated is the wrong word but it has some sort of applied silver finish. Mine has a little 'pip' on the end of its catch which I took to be just a burr but I notice yours is the same. I have noticed that some British made wings have only a thin silver wash which is usually quite worn away. Others are plated so well it can be hard to tell.

 

Tonomachi,

Your wing has casting flaws or more likely lines left by hairline cracks in an old and much used die [or forcer as they are on the back]. This would fit with the "being struck from original dies" theory. Either way these are features not present on mine or Patricks.

Its the solid white metal I have the most problem with. I have seen these at UK fairs with and without Gaunt marks, usually sat beside Brit style US jump wings festooned with stars, spear heads, EGAs, 11th AB, marked to every Brit and Aus maker you can think of. And all made of solid white metal.

I would think the makers of these thought that if they use a white [silver color] metal it will save them the cost of getting them plated.

 

I would love to be prooved wrong. I have a A/C wing, two piece, marked JR GAUNT LONDON, solid white metal and with the square end catch sitting in front of me now.

 

Also, there is evidence Gaunts made USAF wings in the post war years using various alloys.

 

Graham

[Sabrejet]

Here are a couple of British-made wings from my collection which exemplify the typical brass with sliver wash effect as described by Graham.

 

[Sabrejet]

[pfrost]

Sorry Patrick, did not mean to contradict you. In my earlier post I said your wing is plated. Perhaps plated is the wrong word but it has some sort of applied silver finish. Mine has a little 'pip' on the end of its catch which I took to be just a burr but I notice yours is the same. I have noticed that some British made wings have only a thin silver wash which is usually quite worn away. Others are plated so well it can be hard to tell.

 

Tonomachi,

Your wing has casting flaws or more likely lines left by hairline cracks in an old and much used die [or forcer as they are on the back]. This would fit with the "being struck from original dies" theory. Either way these are features not present on mine or Patricks.

Its the solid white metal I have the most problem with. I have seen these at UK fairs with and without Gaunt marks, usually sat beside Brit style US jump wings festooned with stars, spear heads, EGAs, 11th AB, marked to every Brit and Aus maker you can think of. And all made of solid white metal.

I would think the makers of these thought that if they use a white [silver color] metal it will save them the cost of getting them plated.

 

I would love to be prooved wrong. I have a A/C wing, two piece, marked JR GAUNT LONDON, solid white metal and with the square end catch sitting in front of me now.

 

Also, there is evidence Gaunts made USAF wings in the post war years using various alloys.

 

Graham

 

Graham,

You raise excellent points about the JR Gaunt restrikes. The English-made wings are rapidly approaching the place where unless you have rock solid provenance, you don't want to go out and buy them willy-nilly. You do have to kind of take them one step at a time and have a good strategy for telling the good from the bad, (1) make sure they aren't cast copies and then (2) make sure they aren't current restrikes. Finally, unless you can handle them and compare them directly with known good wings, it is hard to make a final decision based on pictures. Even then, you still have to decide on your own level of comfort, as someone will always likely disagree with you and tell you they are fake (or not) depending.

 

I like this wing, and while I wouldn't pay crazy money for it, if the price was right (for me), I may have taken a chance and picked it up to look it over more carefully. I guess from what I can see from the pictures, I would still say I am still "mostly" convinced (~75%) that they aren't castings.

But, since they aren't in my collection, what I think really doesn't matter that much--its just an opinion. Tonomachi is the one who has to be happy! :thumbsup:

 

Patrick

[SLEV2252]

Hi Guys,i started a similar topic back on sep 5th 2011[which you can still see on page 8] about these wings and there were some interesting opinions and pics from various members.I am listing a couple of repeat pics again now for the benefit of members that missed the previous post.I am in agreement with Patrick that these wings are indeed pressed/stamped examples.Both of my examples i have tested as stirling silver although only one pair has an essay mark as pictured,the other pair have just the last 4 letters of silver.The essay marks are for the Birmingham essay office and the letter U is for the year 1944.The marks inside the rear of the shield are also present to indicate the rear die stamp.Interestingly all three seem to have several similar die flaws,the most obvious being to the rear of the wing on the lower edge very near the right tip.I would suggest to Tonomachi to get a cheap silver testing kit from the internet and i think you will probably find they are also silver as they all look like they were made with the same die set,if not silver they could have been made of a cheaper white metal as less expensive alternative.

Steve.

[SLEV2252]

Another pic.