Gregory Posted December 26, 2011 Share #1 Posted December 26, 2011 Hi, It is very hard to find any credible information about the De Havilland DH 82 Tiger Moth trainers used by the USAAF (with the US national markings) in the UK-based AAF units during WWII. Here is the following information: "The de Havilland Canada operation also built 200 Tiger Moths to USAAF Lend-Lease orders, which were designated for paperwork purposes as the PT-24 before being delivered to the Royal Canadian Air Force." But there is nothing more about the Tiger Moths used by the USAAF in UK. In Michel De Trez's book "American Warriors" (page 97) there is a photo of pre-DDay 101st Abn marshalling area, where American Tiger Moth can be seen with the US national insignia on left wing. I do not know what base is it, but of the aerial crafts the CG-4A, UC-78 and C-47s can be seen over there. And one Tiger Moth mentioned with the USAAF national insignia. Does anybody know anything more about the USAAF's Tiger Moths used in the UK with the US markings? Regards Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlan Posted December 27, 2011 Share #2 Posted December 27, 2011 I don't have any info about the US marked aircraft, but is this the type Tiger Moth you're talking about? I took these photos on an early drizzly/foggy morning at a show we attended in Nacogdoches, Texas (East Texas Piny Woods, and it always seemed to be foggy there early in the spring mornings). I think they had theirs marked with Canadian markings(?) Just thought you might like to see the aircraft photo Greg. The guys in the CAF always go up early in the morning on show days, and we call it 'Dawn Patrol' - It's some of the most fun of the whole air show. There's no pressure to be at a certain altitude, time, or position and we fly for fun over the nearby town and countryside to drum up spectators to help out the show's promoter. In a small country-town about half the town often shows up. Really great people who appreciate seeing the restored WWII aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Posted December 27, 2011 Author Share #3 Posted December 27, 2011 Hello, Thanks for your post but this is not Tiger Moth. That's postwar de Havilland Canada DHC-1 Chipmunk designed by noted Polish engineer Wsiewołod Jakimiuk. The Tiger Moth is a beautiful biplane. I know only one photo of this plane with the US markings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Posted December 27, 2011 Author Share #4 Posted December 27, 2011 Just in case -- this is Tiger Moth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted December 27, 2011 Share #5 Posted December 27, 2011 Standard RAF trainer of WW2...Britain's Stearman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Posted December 27, 2011 Author Share #6 Posted December 27, 2011 Ian, have you ever seen or heard about the Tiger Moths used by the USAAF with full American national insignia? How USAAFers bought that (those?) plane(s) from the RAF? :w00t: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted December 27, 2011 Share #7 Posted December 27, 2011 Hello Greg. To be honest, no...I've never seen them in USAAF markings. They fly regularly at UK airshows, but never in USAAF liveries in my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Willaert Posted December 27, 2011 Share #8 Posted December 27, 2011 There's another British? plane visible further in the background on the same picture... From Roger Freeman's 'The Mighty Eighth War Manual' page 216 De Havilland Tiger Moth The RAF's basic trainer This small biplane was supplied as a light liaison AC to a few VIII Fighter Command Fighter Groups in 1943. Eleven AC are known to have been loaned by the RAF, one of which was wrecked in a crash. A popular AC, many were retained until late in 1944, the last two being surrendered by 4th and 356th Groups in early December. Page 217 has a picture of one in USAAF markings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Posted December 27, 2011 Author Share #9 Posted December 27, 2011 Johan, Thank you very, very much! Do you know if those US Tiger Moths remained with their typical RAF four-tone camouflage scheme for the biplanes or were they US OD repainted? Regards Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobrahistorian Posted December 27, 2011 Share #10 Posted December 27, 2011 Gregory, Great subject! I'm going from memory here, but I seem to remember Tiger Moths with US insignia having camouflage sides and upper surfaces and yellow undersides. I will have to confirm that though. I think a few made it to Italy as well with units like the 31st and 52nd FGs but again, I'd have to check that to be sure. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Posted December 27, 2011 Author Share #11 Posted December 27, 2011 Hello Jon, Gregory,Great subject! I always have something original for the USMF The USAAF's Tiger Moths are ultra rare and they do not have big literature today. Fortunately Johan quoted credible source (one more time thanks a lot!). I would be very thankful for any images of those planes with the US national insignia. I'm going from memory here, but I seem to remember Tiger Moths with US insignia having camouflage sides and upper surfaces and yellow undersides. Ah ha, it means they remained their RAF camouflage schemes Light Earth/Light Green + Dark Earth/Dark Green + Yellow. It is interesting how USAAF acquired those planes? Was it Reverese LL? The RAF with their King's Regulations was not a Banana Republic to buy something from them for a crate of chewing gum or nylons Was it official or a kind of "semi-official" purchase? Regards Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobrahistorian Posted December 27, 2011 Share #12 Posted December 27, 2011 I'm not exactly sure how it worked with the Tiger Moths, but I'd assume they were part of Reverse Lend Lease, just like the Spitfires, Beaufighters, Mosquitos, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobrahistorian Posted December 27, 2011 Share #13 Posted December 27, 2011 Here's the shot from Freeman's Mighty Eighth War Manual, P.217. He identifies it as the 4th Fighter Group's airplane, serial DE262. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted December 27, 2011 Share #14 Posted December 27, 2011 Here you go Gregory. Conclusive proof!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Posted December 27, 2011 Author Share #15 Posted December 27, 2011 Here's the shot from Freeman's Mighty Eighth War Manual, P.217. He identifies it as the 4th Fighter Group's airplane, serial DE262. Thanks a lot! :thumbsup: Very interesting -- in Michel De Trez's book mentioned the Tiger Moth has newer version of the USAAF markings with side bars. Maybe not all Tiger Moths were bought at once, but in various months/years...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Signor Posted December 27, 2011 Share #16 Posted December 27, 2011 The photo of the "4th Fighter Group" Tiger Moth would tend to make me think it was a "Hack" for one of the higher ups of the Group , for commuting between HQ and the base etc , just a thought . Have you tried contacting anyone at De Havilland, like a historian, I would think they may have some history on the sales/lend lease of them . Johnny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobrahistorian Posted December 27, 2011 Share #17 Posted December 27, 2011 That particular TM was issued to the 4th FG in late 42/early 43, hence the star without bars. I know I've seen another shot with a full star & bar on it. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AAF_Collection Posted December 27, 2011 Share #18 Posted December 27, 2011 Hi Gregory, I have seen other photos of USAAF Tiger Moths but I need to think about which book they appeard in!. I just did a quick search on http://www.aviationarchaeology.com and found the following http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/dba...&Submit3=Go Matt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Posted December 28, 2011 Author Share #19 Posted December 28, 2011 Thank you very much Matt. It seems that the US Tiger Moths were used as a kind of open cockpit L-Birds for the HQs of various Fighter and Bomber Groups (303rd BG among others). It is interesting for me if there was any "type rating" in the USAAF for Tiger Moths, or everybody jumped in to their cockpit and -- being relatively experienced airman -- flew them intuitively? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AAF_Collection Posted December 28, 2011 Share #20 Posted December 28, 2011 I have never seen any reference to training on Tiger Moths for USAAF personnel,nor for that matter other British types such as the Lysanders used by the Gunnery Flights for target towing,which it seems still carried their RAF markings even while in USAAF use!. My guess is you are correct,most if not all US pilots in the ETO would have already flown similiar types stateside during training so there wasn't any perceived requirement for training on the type. EDIT,if you obtain a copy of any of the accident reports from the link I posted above most US Accident Reports list the pilots hours on the type. If I find anything else I'll let you know. Matt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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