Civil War Petty Officer mark in Silver

[MCPO Tommy]

Hi,

 

This is my first post. I purchased these from ebay a while back. I have seen these type of marks before, but really don't know much about them. Does anyone have any info about these type of rating badges?

[Bob Hudson]

Here's one from a thread at http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...showtopic=16001

 

 

 

No consensus on what it is, but one of our more knowledgeable members said, "The way this badge is made is correct for the 1860's-1890's."

 

 

There is a cloth rating in the thread at http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...showtopic=15646 which is ID'ed as 1861-65

 

[Justin B.]

I have no idea what those are, but they certainly are styled like USN petty officer insignia, like these from the 1869 Uniform regulations:

 

 

Metal badges would not be regulation, though. The petty officer devices are supposed to be worked in blue or white "sewing materials." I would be surprised if that kind of pin were used on uniforms at sea, where it could easily catch and be ripped off. Maybe used on civvies by veterans? I'm stumped.

 

Justin B.

[sigsaye]

Hi,

 

This is my first post. I purchased these from ebay a while back. I have seen these type of marks before, but really don't know much about them. Does anyone have any info about these type of rating badges?

Tom, That style of insignia did not come inot use until after the CW. Metal badges were not used by the USN until the 20th century. OK, that being said, I agree, these certaily do look period correct for the dates of 1866 to 1883 when they were dropped. They could be some sort of GAR item. Many Sailors who were in the GAR "created" their own uniforms or insignia to wear on standard GAR uniforms. There was a thriving "Reproduction" industry to feed this need. Many collectors get their hands on cap ribbons from ships that only exsisted during the CW that have the prefix USS on them. This prefix was not used, until after 1866, but those ribbons made for GAR caps carried the USS. Now, some one will say, if these insignia were not adopted until after the CW, why would GAR guys be using them. Simply, they were available. The crossd anchor insignia did not exsist, but it signifies a "Coxwain", of a "Captain of the Top", or, depending on which side it was worn on a Boatswains mate. These rates were around during the war, just no insignia. Today, I see vets wearing all sorts of combinations of stuff, their war/period or current. The most common Navy GAR ting I see is an 1880s flat hat with a USS cap ribbon for "Monitor" or some other CW only vessel. All enlisted CW insignia was hand made by the Sailor himself (or a buddy that had a hand with a needle), so CW stuff was rare.

 

OK, all that being said, I would say GAR items.

 

By the way, retired SMCS here, spent three years in Sasebo aboard USS ST. Louis (LKA-116), and lived there from '65-'67 when my dad (EM1 USN RET) was stationed aboard USS Ajax (AR-6). Great town, have fun. There is a bar in "Sailor Town called the Grama Phone. Been there since the 1920s. Only place besides the base that wasn't leveled durring WW 2 (Precission Bombing I think :thumbsup:) If you find it, tell Hiro Hay from the Signalgang from the "Lou". Also, just on the corner is a place that was called "Snoopys". Filthy greasey place that served fried corndogs. Theyw were fantastic! Even my wife liked them! (She wouldn't sit on any of the stools, but would eat the He!! out of some corndogs). Oh, yeah, if you get lost and stumble inot the Japanese VFW there in town (it's always been a Navy town), Don't worry, buy a round of beer and you'll be one of the boys They may break out their photo albums from when they were off fighting the Great Pacific War. The photos are really kind of "Familure" to any one who's ever been in the military, same shots, same poses with your buddies.

 

Steve Hesson

[MCPO Tommy]

Tom, That style of insignia did not come inot use until after the CW. Metal badges were not used by the USN until the 20th century. OK, that being said, I agree, these certaily do look period correct for the dates of 1866 to 1883 when they were dropped. They could be some sort of GAR item. Many Sailors who were in the GAR "created" their own uniforms or insignia to wear on standard GAR uniforms. There was a thriving "Reproduction" industry to feed this need. Many collectors get their hands on cap ribbons from ships that only exsisted during the CW that have the prefix USS on them. This prefix was not used, until after 1866, but those ribbons made for GAR caps carried the USS. Now, some one will say, if these insignia were not adopted until after the CW, why would GAR guys be using them. Simply, they were available. The crossd anchor insignia did not exsist, but it signifies a "Coxwain", of a "Captain of the Top", or, depending on which side it was worn on a Boatswains mate. These rates were around during the war, just no insignia. Today, I see vets wearing all sorts of combinations of stuff, their war/period or current. The most common Navy GAR ting I see is an 1880s flat hat with a USS cap ribbon for "Monitor" or some other CW only vessel. All enlisted CW insignia was hand made by the Sailor himself (or a buddy that had a hand with a needle), so CW stuff was rare.

 

OK, all that being said, I would say GAR items.

 

By the way, retired SMCS here, spent three years in Sasebo aboard USS ST. Louis (LKA-116), and lived there from '65-'67 when my dad (EM1 USN RET) was stationed aboard USS Ajax (AR-6). Great town, have fun. There is a bar in "Sailor Town called the Grama Phone. Been there since the 1920s. Only place besides the base that wasn't leveled durring WW 2 (Precission Bombing I think :thumbsup:) If you find it, tell Hiro Hay from the Signalgang from the "Lou". Also, just on the corner is a place that was called "Snoopys". Filthy greasey place that served fried corndogs. Theyw were fantastic! Even my wife liked them! (She wouldn't sit on any of the stools, but would eat the He!! out of some corndogs). Oh, yeah, if you get lost and stumble inot the Japanese VFW there in town (it's always been a Navy town), Don't worry, buy a round of beer and you'll be one of the boys They may break out their photo albums from when they were off fighting the Great Pacific War. The photos are really kind of "Familure" to any one who's ever been in the military, same shots, same poses with your buddies.

 

Steve Hesson

 

Steve,

 

I believe that you are right about these items are GAR badges. These particular badges uses loops to fasten to the uniform or coat. These must have cost a pretty penny bback in the day and I can't see that a sailor while on active duty would spend so much on items like this. I am really enjoying Sasebo with my family. Unfortunately I spend most of my time deployed on USS ESSEX. I do have an original Petty Officer Mark from the Civil War Period, but don't know where to post it. It is hand made in chain stitch. Thanks for the advice! I do remember the AJAX as I deployed with her on USS Fox in the 90s.

 

Tom Ward

[Salvage Sailor]

There is a bar in "Sailor Town called the Grama Phone. Been there since the 1920s. Only place besides the base that wasn't leveled durring WW 2 Steve Hesson

 

Ahoy Steve,

 

Is that the watering hole that has the ship's plaques all over the bulkheads?

 

break - break

 

Welcome Aboard Tommy

[ge999]

I have no idea what those are, but they certainly are styled like USN petty officer insignia, like these from the 1869 Uniform regulations:

 

 

Metal badges would not be regulation, though. The petty officer devices are supposed to be worked in blue or white "sewing materials." I would be surprised if that kind of pin were used on uniforms at sea, where it could easily catch and be ripped off. Maybe used on civvies by veterans? I'm stumped.

 

Justin B.

 

I've got a post Civil War (cirica 1880's) PO2 Dress uniform that uses metal insignia's on the collar. What it came with was just a pair of fouled anchors like you'd expect; though I could potentially see if the sailor was a coxswain that he might wear a pair of the insignia's on the right on the collar. The PO rate looks just just like the photo from above, with the eagle sitting on top of the anchor and the 2 chevrons below it. The eagle is done up in really great bullion, but I couldn't see anyone using a metal piece in its place. Even for a dress uniform it would always be getting snagged on something or rip something it got caught on; basically a recipe for disaster.

[sigsaye]

Ahoy Steve,

 

Is that the watering hole that has the ship's plaques all over the bulkheads?

 

break - break

 

Welcome Aboard Tommy

Why yes it was. Hiro had photo albums and wall photos of before and durring WW2. Pretty cool stuff.

 

Steve Hesson

[sigsaye]

I've got a post Civil War (cirica 1880's) PO2 Dress uniform that uses metal insignia's on the collar. What it came with was just a pair of fouled anchors like you'd expect; though I could potentially see if the sailor was a coxswain that he might wear a pair of the insignia's on the right on the collar. The PO rate looks just just like the photo from above, with the eagle sitting on top of the anchor and the 2 chevrons below it. The eagle is done up in really great bullion, but I couldn't see anyone using a metal piece in its place. Even for a dress uniform it would always be getting snagged on something or rip something it got caught on; basically a recipe for disaster.

Where on the collar were the anchors located?

 

Steve Hesson

[sigsaye]

Steve,

 

I believe that you are right about these items are GAR badges. These particular badges uses loops to fasten to the uniform or coat. These must have cost a pretty penny bback in the day and I can't see that a sailor while on active duty would spend so much on items like this. I am really enjoying Sasebo with my family. Unfortunately I spend most of my time deployed on USS ESSEX. I do have an original Petty Officer Mark from the Civil War Period, but don't know where to post it. It is hand made in chain stitch. Thanks for the advice! I do remember the AJAX as I deployed with her on USS Fox in the 90s.

 

Tom Ward

Tom, Oh yeah, I remember that. In the first two years we were there, we were in port Sasebo 66 days (not consecutive, just total). The wife bought a car, learned to drive on the worng side of the road and drove all over Kyushu. She learned what the Kanji for Sasebo was so she could always follow the road signs home.

 

Steve Hesson

[Salvage Sailor]

Why yes it was. Hiro had photo albums and wall photos of before and durring WW2. Pretty cool stuff.

 

Steve Hesson

 

Steve,

 

Again & again we discover that we've sailed the same courses and trolled the same bars.....

 

Some time ago you wrote that it would have been great to hit the beach with me,

 

Ditto that swabbie.....

[sigsaye]

Steve,

 

Again & again we discover that we've sailed the same courses and trolled the same bars.....

 

Some time ago you wrote that it would have been great to hit the beach with me,

 

Ditto that swabbie.....

My sister owns a house there in Honolulu. She is currently stationed in Missawa Japan. When she rotates back there, the wife and I will be bringing my Mom & Dad's remains to be poured inot the ocean (they both loved HI, and the Pacific). We will be staying with my sister. When that happens, I'll let you know and maybe we can get together and hoist a few beers to the old days and old Sailors.

 

Steve Hesson

[Justin B.]

I've got a post Civil War (cirica 1880's) PO2 Dress uniform that uses metal insignia's on the collar. What it came with was just a pair of fouled anchors like you'd expect; though I could potentially see if the sailor was a coxswain that he might wear a pair of the insignia's on the right on the collar. The PO rate looks just just like the photo from above, with the eagle sitting on top of the anchor and the 2 chevrons below it. The eagle is done up in really great bullion, but I couldn't see anyone using a metal piece in its place.

 

That sounds like it could be a Naval Academy dress jacket with a Midshipman Petty Officer badge.

[sigsaye]

That sounds like it could be a Naval Academy dress jacket with a Midshipman Petty Officer badge.

I have to agree. This style of eagle/anchor was not used by USN enlisted with chevrons and was dropped by the time chevrons were adopted. Additionally, the dress blue jacket (I think we may be talking about a jacket) was also dropped in the same changes that dropped this style of eagle and added chevrons. Real CW Navy stuff is outrageously expensive. A plain hat with no frills funs about 5K if you can find one.

 

Steve Hesson

[MCPO Tommy]

I have no idea what those are, but they certainly are styled like USN petty officer insignia, like these from the 1869 Uniform regulations:

 

 

Metal badges would not be regulation, though. The petty officer devices are supposed to be worked in blue or white "sewing materials." I would be surprised if that kind of pin were used on uniforms at sea, where it could easily catch and be ripped off. Maybe used on civvies by veterans? I'm stumped.

 

Justin B.

 

Justin,

Thanks for the insight.

 

Tom