Alternative to M3 Combat knife ??

[Pat_from_Brix]

Hi !

 

A study made by some members of the 90th Infantry Division Preservation Group ( available here) shows that M3 knives were not widely issued to troops bearing a carbine (I'm portraying a radioman with SCR300 so M1 carbine is the most suitable weapon for both Airborne and Infantry radioman). Viewing more original pictures leads to the same conclusion.

 

My question is : what alternative existed for the soldiers bearing carbines ? Did they just have their M1 carbine and no edged combat knife ? How easy would it be to get a hunting knife from the PX or other shop ? What about the PAL 36 RH knife ? Was it often used by GIs ? All in one, what was done in WWII by GIs who didn't have an M3 combat knife (and bearing a carbine of course) ?

 

Many thanks

 

Pat

[uplandmod]

Hi !

 

A study made by some members of the 90th Infantry Division Preservation Group ( available here) shows that M3 knives were not widely issued to troops bearing a carbine (I'm portraying a radioman with SCR300 so M1 carbine is the most suitable weapon for both Airborne and Infantry radioman). Viewing more original pictures leads to the same conclusion.

 

My question is : what alternative existed for the soldiers bearing carbines ? Did they just have their M1 carbine and no edged combat knife ? How easy would it be to get a hunting knife from the PX or other shop ? What about the PAL 36 RH knife ? Was it often used by GIs ? All in one, what was done in WWII by GIs who didn't have an M3 combat knife (and bearing a carbine of course) ?

 

Many thanks

 

Pat

 

Hello Pat,

 

I love that site very much, I like how they use statistics to get a better idea on what ETO G.I.'s carried in combat based on photographs.

 

It is my understanding that the M3 knife was suppose to be issued to a soldier armed with a carbine in lieu of the bayonet. The M3 was replaced with the M4 when the Carbine was upgraded to hold the M4 bayonet. I'm sure there was enough M3 in supply that on personal level a soldier who would want one could get one. According to what the author wrote only 20% of the photos he observed had both M1 carbines and M-3 knives or any other fighting knife of anytype. I'm the authenticity officer for our reenactment group I'm a part of and I would be OK with you having a carbine and M3 fighting knife as long as its not out of proportion (ie more than 20% of the carbine holders in the group have M3's) with the rest of the group.

 

Good Luck!

Leonardo

[Captainofthe7th]

Just about any hunting knife of the era is appropriate. Cattaragus 225Q and PAL 36 knives were popular choices. Many Camillus blades were popular as well.

 

And not every carried a large knife...it's not always necessary and usually it is more of a tool than a weapon so a nice pocket knife may work even better.

 

Rob

[glenm]

I love statistics....

 

Read these parts again, Pat, and draw your own conclusions:

 

Number of soldiers where the belt was not observable: 71

Number of soldiers wearing no belt for magazine pouches: 25

Number of soldiers with one magazine pouch on their belt observable: 24

Number of soldiers with two magazine pouches on their belt observable: 17 [That's just 41 belts in total that they can see in the photos]

 

Percentage of soldiers where the belt was not observable: 52%

Percentage of soldiers wearing no belt for magazine pouches: 18% [That's 70% with no visible belt or not wearing a belt at all]

Percentage of soldiers with one magazine pouch on their belt observable: 17.5%

Percentage of soldiers with two magazine pouches on their belt observable: 12.5%

 

Number of soldiers with the M3 Knife or other knife visible: 23 [That's 23 belts out of the 41 total that they can see in the photos - and that is 56% of the belts they can see - and even then they won't be able to see ALL AROUND the soldier to see if he has an M3 knife just around his side further back, so the total is UNDOUBTEDLY higher....]

 

My conclusion.... bad statistics can be misleading... I'd have no problem wearing an M3 or other knife. As Rob has said above, Cattaragus 225Q and PAL 36 knives are the best other choices.

 

Cheers,

Glen.

[Greaser]

The conclusions are also quite telling...

 

"6.) Not everyone who had a M1 Carbine had a M3 knife or other similar type knife.

 

Based on the photos and numbers, only 20% of troops armed with the Carbine were observed to have M3 knives or other similar fighting knives. I suspect the percentage was higher - probably double, but that still leaves the overall ratio to be less than 1/2. "

 

The article is a starting point for further discussion - and specifically unit focused research. While neither extreme should be taken to absolutley follow the ratios to the number, nor totally disregard the trends - there is some middle ground and sense to be explored.

 

Its more of an examination and reflection as to how many reenactors operate - focused solely on an individual impression rather than how they fit within a larger group. It also questions some of the "automatic" connections that reenactors draw in their mind. "I carry a carbine, therefore I need to have a M3 knife" - NOT SO! It is OK to do without - and it is OK to explore other knife options.

 

I'm glad that the article has spurred discussion over the past couple of years.

 

I welcome and encourage others to take up similar efforts and publish them. Whehter it is to refute or concur with the starting point - or pursue a totally different topic - it all helps the hobby in one way or another. Enough of the rote regurgitation of kit layouts from manuals or osprey books...

 

Chris-

[glenm]

Chris, don't get me wrong - I love your website and all the research on it - what I'm trying to get Pat (& Leonardo) to look at how to use statistics and photo research properly and not to take one figure or part of some research out of context and come to the wrong conclusion. We often use the wealth of research on the 90thID website for reference purposes for the guys.

 

Pat - did everyone have an M3? Definitely not. Did those who didn't have an M3 have another knife instead? Probably not all of them. Can you get away with looking like any of the three options (with M3/with another knife/with none)? Yes. As long as you don't have another 10 guys standing next to you dressed all them same trying to be combat-representative...

 

Cheers,

Glen.

[Greaser]

Glen-

 

You're on the money - same page as I am. I've been dismayed to see some people, not Pat, take the stats for far more than they actually are. Particularly to attack, rather than see this as a starting point for reflection and further research.

 

It becomes farby when everybody in a group has a M3, or everybody in a group that has a carbine also has a m3... and a 1911... and m36 suspenders....

 

Pat-

 

Individually, explore other options - and in the meantime go without until you find something you really like, or is unique to your focused impresion. Less is more in many circumstances. There are sometimes when things are cliche, and others when they are truly spot on... its all how you deliberately approach things.

 

I personally have a thing for the Q knives, both the Cat and the Case. RH 36's are a great standby. There are sooo many options out there of fixed blade 6 inch "spec" knives, as well as "PX" knives. The Edged section here is a tremendous resource. I've fallen in love with the Western knives because of this forum. Still havent found just the right one at the right price to add to my impression yet.

 

Chris-

[uplandmod]

No reason to correct me. I undertand the concept of the site and about statistics provided and work. I just believe its a creative and intersting way to open discussion on what GIs carried in some of these campaigns

 

As you said, there are so many varables in the photos there can never be a difinitive answer but its a good cornerstone to work with.

 

Leonardo

[Greaser]

Leonardo-

 

I did not aim my comment regarding attacks at you - nor did I intend my initial posting as any kind of correction. I though it would be useful as the author to further expound upon my intent.

 

There are a couple of other forums out there, one of which particularly belligerant in nature in which the "stats" works are siginficantly misinterpreted.

 

Chris-

[Pat_from_Brix]

Hi !

 

First of all, I'd like to thank everyone for their answers ! I think I can see clearer about what knives where issued to troops !

 

As for the statistics, I think there are a good starting point when you have a question concerning WWII. As a reenactor, I'm always trying to improve my impression with maximum historical accuracy ! Therefore, pictures and studies (as the one done by Chris) are definitely a good start. I think the way I posted my question wasn't very clear and I apologize for that. I understood the conclusion that not everyone bearing a carbine had an M3 (although they were quite common) and thus my question was more about what did they have instead of an M3 !

 

My aim is to definitively stay away from the farb ideas as stated by Chris (M3, M36 Suspenders and .45) so I was looking at the other options. Thus before spending money that could have been wasted on something that would have been farby, I posted my questions here ! I might look for a Cattaraugus 225Q or PAL 36 to add my static display (Glen, you know about the laws in the UK (VCR Bill) and travelling with combat knife on the Eurostar is forbidden - I still have to see what they have to say about my M1 helmet !!!).

 

Again, many thanks to all for this interesting debate (both on the combat knives and the use of statistics )

 

Cheers

 

Pat

[Greaser]

Pat-

 

I'm not sure what the prices are like in France, but while you're in the US, you've got the opportunity to pick up some nice knives. In my opinion, the Cat's, Case Q's, RH's, and several others are significantly undervalued ($$$) here in the states, especially when compared to M3's. I typically see some very nice knives for under $100 at virtually every show I attend - in many cases, "field" grade knives can be had in the $50 range. I'm not familiar with the restrictions on sending knives over to europe, so that may be a moot point.

 

Chris-

[Pat_from_Brix]

Pat-

 

I'm not sure what the prices are like in France, but while you're in the US, you've got the opportunity to pick up some nice knives. In my opinion, the Cat's, Case Q's, RH's, and several others are significantly undervalued ($$$) here in the states, especially when compared to M3's. I typically see some very nice knives for under $100 at virtually every show I attend - in many cases, "field" grade knives can be had in the $50 range. I'm not familiar with the restrictions on sending knives over to europe, so that may be a moot point.

 

Chris-

 

 

Hi

 

Yes, I did see that 1940s hunting knives were rather affordable in the States, compared to M3s. I don't think it would be a problem to bring one back to France (apparently no problem sending it by mail, probably less trouble than taking it in me luggage on the plane). The law in the UK are more strict about knives (I am part of a British reenacting group, GI44-45, thus why I mentioned the UK in my previous posts).

 

BTW does anyone know any good militaria fair that would take place in the spring (I'm in Chicago and can move a bit around it, like 150 miles from it by train)) ?

 

Many thanks

 

Pat

[Greaser]

Hi

 

Yes, I did see that 1940s hunting knives were rather affordable in the States, compared to M3s. I don't think it would be a problem to bring one back to France (apparently no problem sending it by mail, probably less trouble than taking it in me luggage on the plane). The law in the UK are more strict about knives (I am part of a British reenacting group, GI44-45, thus why I mentioned the UK in my previous posts).

 

BTW does anyone know any good militaria fair that would take place in the spring (I'm in Chicago and can move a bit around it, like 150 miles from it by train)) ?

 

Many thanks

 

Pat

 

 

Show of Shows. Feb 23-26, 2012 - Louisville Ky.