Swivel bail helmets in the MTO

[ccmax]

This is the earliest pic I have of swivel bail helmets in wear in the MTO. It was taken in the fall of 1944 in Italy, between September/October.

This means these helmets were issued to these men in August 1944. I suppose the helmets could have reached this theatre of operations months before.

[Squad leader]

This picture was taken on the MTO. The men belong to the French Expeditionnary Corps in Italy.

What do you think about the M-1 helmet?

Is it a swivel or fixed bail helmet?

 

[ccmax]

Very hard to see, maybe it will be possible in a larger size. On the photo I posted both helmets are swivel bails but this can only be seen on the helmet worn by the man on the left. If these helmets were issued in August 1944, who knows how long before they had been sitting in Italian theatre supply dumps...

[craig_pickrall]

Cesar do you know when that unit arrived in theater and what unit it is? It may be that they brought the latest issue helmets with them. There was a published shortage of helmets in the summer of 1943 in the MTO. In order to meet the needs it may be too that the latest helmets were shipped. We had this discussion on another thread concerning the swivel bales but I do not know where to find that thread now.

[ccmax]

Both men belong to a Brazilian recon squadron. This means the helmets were issued to them after they arrived in the MTO since Brazilians didn't ship overseas with their helmets.

[Theorywolf]

Cesar,

 

I did a close up of the helmet and I am almost sure that it is a swivel bail (squad leader's pic)!

 

Mike

[101combatvet]

I have been saying this for years.... someone puts their un-documented theory in a book and all collectors believe it as gospel. Foolish....

[Squad leader]

Cesar,

 

I did a close up of the helmet and I am almost sure that it is a swivel bail (squad leader's pic)!

 

Mike

 

Hi Mike,

Many thanks for your contribution. That is what I was assuming.

The picture was taken on May 14, 1944, in the vicinity of Ausonia (20 miles south-west of Cassino). Both men belong to the 7th RCA (7e Regiment de Chasseurs d’Afrique), the TD unit of the 3rd DIA (Algerian Infantry Division).

 

Dan.

[Bugme]

Well, that's at least six months sooner than I would have ever believed these helmets to be in the hands of combat troops in Europe. Live and learn!

[Jeeper704]

I always believed that swivel bales came into use around the liberation of Belgium.

That's around September - October 1944 (depending in which part of Belgium you live).

That's ETO.

 

So, MTO should have gotten them even sooner.

 

Erwin

[ccmax]

I enlarged the pic of the French soldier as well and agree it's a swivel bail.

[101combatvet]

No, it probably means that you could push the ETO date to late winter (March) of 1944.

 

I always believed that swivel bales came into use around the liberation of Belgium.

That's around September - October 1944 (depending in which part of Belgium you live).

That's ETO.

 

So, MTO should have gotten them even sooner.

 

Erwin

[Jeeper704]

Hmm, I wouldn't go that far down.

But you might have a point there.

 

To me the introduction of swivel baled helmets would start at the very end of July, early August when the majority of replacements came in to fill the ranks of the battered units in the Normandy Campaign.

 

Just my point of view.

 

Erwin

[tweedie]

Hmm, I wouldn't go that far down.

But you might have a point there.

 

To me the introduction of swivel baled helmets would start at the very end of July, early August when the majority of replacements came in to fill the ranks of the battered units in the Normandy Campaign.

 

Just my point of view.

 

Erwin

 

Hello,

I also agree with this theory. Some pics show swivel bales on D-Day (USN) other during the hedgerow battle and some were also dug up in Normandy... Some of these relics show battle damage and could be a proof that SB were combat used in Normandy, but it was very popular among the civilians to shoot helmets after the battle with weapons left on the battlefield (A machine gun contest was even organized in the late 40s in the small village of Quibou!). But with a friend of mine, we came across one dug up SB with shell splinters damages... if the civilians could easily fire rifles or machine guns, they hardly used mortars or guns...

Tweedie

[101combatvet]

Yeah, but most of the units that arrived in Northern France at the end of July into August had already been in England for some time.... check the timeline. The replacements? Large numbers were already in England well before the D-Day Invasion.

 

Hmm, I wouldn't go that far down.

But you might have a point there.

 

To me the introduction of swivel baled helmets would start at the very end of July, early August when the majority of replacements came in to fill the ranks of the battered units in the Normandy Campaign.

 

Just my point of view.

 

Erwin

[tweedie]

Yeah, but most of the units that arrived in Northern France at the end of July into August had already been in England for some time.... check the timeline. The replacements? Large numbers were already in England well before the D-Day Invasion.

of course most of units engaged in Normandy were in Britain for a while, but some units received replacements just before D-Day.

The 9th Division, for instance, received replacements from 310th Regiment on may 25th 1944.

Tweedie

[101combatvet]

This is very true.... most units that went into Normandy in the initial phases were beefed up for the invasion. This was in anticipation of the high estimated casualties.

 

of course most of units engaged in Normandy were in Britain for a while, but some units received replacements just before D-Day.

The 9th Division, for instance, received replacements from 310th Regiment on may 25th 1944.

Tweedie

[Jeeper704]

If I am not mistaken, there were indeed replacements coming into Britain and staying only a few weeks before being shipped out to frontline units or units on the mainland.

Not all replacements stayed in Britain for months.

 

Erwin

[king802]

Until i see photographic evidence of swivel bail helmets being present in Normandy then i will still say no. There just isn't enough tangible evidence to support the theory. I'd say late August early September, Swivel Bales were used on Market garden.

 

Rich

[101combatvet]

Okay... about a year ago I had a big debate with an expert that claimed to know all about steel pots. His conclusion was that no swivel bales were really used in the ETO, his logic being the number of fixed bails that had been manufactured. During the debate he changed course and mentions that the earliest possible date may have been November of 1944 that they could have arrived in the ETO. My question was what proof do you have for your thesis? Now he didn't have an answer because the expert was quoting authors that have written about the subject. Then stated that he wasn't really an expert.... okay. Because of the nature of my business I have access to Army sources that some of these authors have never tapped into... so it has been my understanding that all have followed each other on the mid to late fall 1944 theory. The problem with their theory is that it isn't documented.... at least from my knowledge. Now it seems that the date for swivel bales has moved to late summer or early fall of 1944. Can you explain to me how you come to your believe?

 

Until i see photographic evidence of swivel bail helmets being present in Normandy then i will still say no. There just isn't enough tangible evidence to support the theory. I'd say late August early September, Swivel Bales were used on Market garden.

 

Rich

[tweedie]

Until i see photographic evidence of swivel bail helmets being present in Normandy then i will still say no. There just isn't enough tangible evidence to support the theory. I'd say late August early September, Swivel Bales were used on Market garden.

 

Rich

Hi Rich,

helmets coming from the battlefield (and also under the battlefield) are also evidences. You will soon get the answer

during our "helmet tour" with my buddy, we also met a French WWII soldier. At 17, he was fighting in the Resistance and joined the French Army after his city was liberated by US Army in september 1944. When he joined his new TD unit, he was provided with a SB and a liner with brass washers. Another interesting fact, insignia of the division was already painted on the helmet when he got it.

Regards

[Jeeper704]

Looking forward to seeing pictures of this.

 

Erwin

[CVA19]

 

I have been following the issue of SBs used in the ETO (D-Day forward) for some time. The helmet pictured has SBs and is ID'd to a soldier who served in the 79th ID. The 79th advance landed Omaha D-Day plus 6, with the rest of the 79th landing 2 days later. While the argument might be made that this helmet was issued to him later than D-Day plus 6 or plus 8 (and there is no reason to believe that it was), it is at least some evidence that SB helmets were used after the breakout and throughout 1944 to the end of the war.

 

Robert

[101combatvet]

Many will always believe the moon was made out of cheese.

 

I have been following the issue of SBs used in the ETO (D-Day forward) for some time. The helmet pictured has SBs and is ID'd to a soldier who served in the 79th ID. The 79th advance landed Omaha D-Day plus 6, with the rest of the 79th landing 2 days later. While the argument might be made that this helmet was issued to him later than D-Day plus 6 or plus 8 (and there is no reason to believe that it was), it is at least some evidence that SB helmets were used after the breakout and throughout 1944 to the end of the war.

 

Robert

[bfryar44]

I have been following the issue of SBs used in the ETO (D-Day forward) for some time. The helmet pictured has SBs and is ID'd to a soldier who served in the 79th ID. The 79th advance landed Omaha D-Day plus 6, with the rest of the 79th landing 2 days later. While the argument might be made that this helmet was issued to him later than D-Day plus 6 or plus 8 (and there is no reason to believe that it was), it is at least some evidence that SB helmets were used after the breakout and throughout 1944 to the end of the war.

 

 

Robert,

 

Is the net original to the helmet? The reason that I ask is that it's different than the nets the 79th used while in Normandy.

See here: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...?showtopic=1894

 

Thanks,

Bryan