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Todays M1 helmet Fakers ruining nice pieces...


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My thoughts on it are as follows:

 

If you want to ADD things to an item that doesn't destroy or severely alter the item....go right ahead! Add as many goggles, pieces of scrim, helmet nets, burlap covers, parachute material, stick stuff in the an elastic band, take off the steel clip on chinstraps and sew on repros for reinacting...GO FOR IT! But quite painting d*mn playing card suit symbols onto it thinking that you're something special. The airborne divisions and d-day units did some incredible things during the war...don't get me wrong...but so did every other soldier in every other division in the ETO and the PTO. Just sit and talk with a vet and you will hear some interesting, sobering, heart wrenching, adrenaline filled tales. Now granted a DSC recipient from the 82nd Airborne will have some great stories, but the stories of soldier who sat at a replacement depot when his daughter was born across the country and then headed overseas in the spring of '45 are still ones that need to be shared.

 

I am SO glad that the unit I collect/research/write about IS NOT a Hollywood unit that everybody, their neighbor, and their neighbors dog wants to own a piece of. I can buy an original 76th Infantry division patch for $2.00 w/ free shipping...when was the last time a 101st airborne collector could say that? 1998? I am not speaking of the collectors on here who were as Barbara Mandrell would sing " country when country wasn't cool..." that have been collecting airborne or d-day divisions long before I was born or the airborne frenzy took off (I can only imagine how mad they are! Maybe some of you can attest!)

 

In conclusion Hollywood unit aficionados, don't be afraid to venture out! You may be surprised by what COOL things other soldiers that didn't jump out of airplanes did during the war.

 

Speaking of jumping, it's about time to hop off this soapbox I believe. Sorry if I stepped on any toes!

Visit My 76th Division Collection Website!

http://76thdivisioncollection.blogspot.com/

Always looking for 76th Infantry Division Items and Information!!

385th, 304th, and 417th Infantry Regiments : 355th, 364th, 901st, 302nd Field Artillery Battalions

301st Medical and 301st Engineer Battalions


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i agree. i am fine with that UNTIL they stick it on ebay and decide to say its a real deal helmet or they intentionally try to rip someone off. i stay away from ABN items totally because of the drama with 99% of it being fake.

 

philip

Actively Seeking:

WW2 USN/USMC Attributed/Named Purple Heart Groups

WW2 USN/USMC Combat Aviation Groups

 

WW2 and Prior USN/USMC Medal Groups

 

Contact me if you have something

 



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i agree. i am fine with that UNTIL they stick it on ebay and decide to say its a real deal helmet or they intentionally try to rip someone off. i stay away from ABN items totally because of the drama with 99% of it being fake.

 

philip

 

Ahhh, you say that now. When an authentic M2 D bail falls in your lap like it did mine, you will change your tune, no way I would get rid of mine now and I refuse to collect airborne stuff.


Visit my eBay store: http://stores.ebay.com/crustyw4scorner/

 

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Ahhh, you say that now. When an authentic M2 D bail falls in your lap like it did mine, you will change your tune, no way I would get rid of mine now and I refuse to collect airborne stuff.

 

Suuuuureeee. Go ahead and rub it in ;)

Learn to ride hard, shoot straight, dance well and so live that you can, if necessary, look any man in the eye and tell him to go to Hell! US Cavalry Manual, 1923

 

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I have a few painted lids, some real, some are questionable and some are straight out fakes (bought when I didn't know any better :pinch: ) and at no point will I ever sell those without absolutely announcing their true origins.

 

I have taken the advice of so many of you here, and that is to watch for and grab up as many real honest plain-Jane M-1's while they are still out there and before they all go under the knife to re-surface with the helmet fakers version of helmet Botox, suddenly there's a whole new face on an old veteran helmet that really just wants to grow old naturally!

 

Yep, from here on, it's plain M-1's unless my gut instinct tells me otherwise,

 

From north of the 49th,

 

Rick

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Collector of WWII M-1helmets and WWII Airborne items

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The Ebay account is mine and the Inland liner was purchased in a separate auction along with a repro d-bail helmet. The Lt. Insignia on the front was original and the A-yokes were not added by me. I am knowledgeable, I know what helmet liners are worth. I would never come close to an Inland liner with a drill in my hand. In fact, I purchased another one this afternoon. However, a Westinghouse (one of my numerous, numerous Westinghouses) I would touch. And yes, the Westinghouse liner that Justin mentioned, I did add the a-yokes. As for the Navy fixed bail and rayon liner for sale at the moment. The Fixed bail was completely trashed and beat up. As you can see it has the bullet hit on its side and has been refurbished. The shell I recorked and repainted. The Westinghouse liner was completely gutted when I purchased it. I decided to reweb it. I bought a kit from Jmurray and brought it back to life. I took two pieces that were gutted and paint stripped back to the best condition I could. I guess this makes me a "faker", and I'm fine with that. Regarding the fakes and reproductionists topic, I added myself to it, I didn't wait around for enough people to complain about me. However, after a couple of days a moderator friend removed me from the list, probably to protect my reputation, but I am fine with being back on it. Even if you look back at my first posts on this forum they were never serious collection topics. They were put-together helmets and recorked shells. I have always enjoyed doing this, long before I started selling them on eBay. My work was encouraged by many of the same people that are attacking me right now. I guess this is where you guys take me out back and shoot me. If you want me off the forum say the word.

Respectively,

Grant aka Circa1941

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The Ebay account is mine and the Inland liner was purchased in a separate auction along with a repro d-bail helmet. The Lt. Insignia on the front was original and the A-yokes were not added by me. I am knowledgeable, I know what helmet liners are worth. I would never come close to an Inland liner with a drill in my hand. In fact, I purchased another one this afternoon. However, a Westinghouse (one of my numerous, numerous Westinghouses) I would touch. And yes, the Westinghouse liner that Justin mentioned, I did add the a-yokes. As for the Navy fixed bail and rayon liner for sale at the moment. The Fixed bail was completely trashed and beat up. As you can see it has the bullet hit on its side and has been refurbished. The shell I recorked and repainted. The Westinghouse liner was completely gutted when I purchased it. I decided to reweb it. I bought a kit from Jmurray and brought it back to life. I took two pieces that were gutted and paint stripped back to the best condition I could. I guess this makes me a "faker", and I'm fine with that. Regarding the fakes and reproductionists topic, I added myself to it, I didn't wait around for enough people to complain about me. However, after a couple of days a moderator friend removed me from the list, probably to protect my reputation, but I am fine with being back on it. Even if you look back at my first posts on this forum they were never serious collection topics. They were put-together helmets and recorked shells. I have always enjoyed doing this, long before I started selling them on eBay. My work was encouraged by many of the same people that are attacking me right now. I guess this is where you guys take me out back and shoot me. If you want me off the forum say the word.

Respectively,

Grant aka Circa1941

 

Grant, correct me if I am wrong. In an old thread when this was brought up, I believe it was said that these type repros should be marked as such...permanently somehow. If i recall i thought you stated that you were going to start stamping or marking your lids as such. What happened, and how come you never started? If what you say is true about only using trashed pots, then my only problem with what you do is the fact that you are not marking your helmets where collectors can see its a repro. You know as well as I do that these lids are eventually going to come to market again and eventually someone will try and pass one as original.

 

Steve

Visit my website http://www.m1helmetdepot.com/ for Nice M-1 helmets and parts

 

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Grant, correct me if I am wrong. In an old thread when this was brought up, I believe it was said that these type repros should be marked as such...permanently somehow. If i recall i thought you stated that you were going to start stamping or marking your lids as such. What happened, and how come you never started? If what you say is true about only using trashed pots, then my only problem with what you do is the fact that you are not marking your helmets where collectors can see its a repro. You know as well as I do that these lids are eventually going to come to market again and eventually someone will try and pass one as original.

 

Steve

Steve, I never said that I would dremel my helmets with the words "repro". What I said was, any fake helmet no matter how it is marked, can be sold as an original. I said any etching can be patched and painted. If a faker wants to sell a helmet as an original badly enough he will find a way to do so. I never stated that I would be permanently dremeling my helmets.

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These were my exact words from this topic: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...83169&st=20

 

"...engraving the helmet would be more of an act of vandalism than adding paint to it. Then that is when I realized there is absolutely no way to ensure a reproduction helmet is not passed off as an original. It just can't be done. A clever criminal will always find a way around any sort of "disclaimer". The only thing that buyers can arm themselves with when buying a helmet is knowledge."

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These were my exact words from this topic: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...83169&st=20

 

"...engraving the helmet would be more of an act of vandalism than adding paint to it. Then that is when I realized there is absolutely no way to ensure a reproduction helmet is not passed off as an original. It just can't be done. A clever criminal will always find a way around any sort of "disclaimer". The only thing that buyers can arm themselves with when buying a helmet is knowledge."

 

Sure there is. Don't make them in the first place. Not just pointing towards your work, but to ALL those who do it.

Learn to ride hard, shoot straight, dance well and so live that you can, if necessary, look any man in the eye and tell him to go to Hell! US Cavalry Manual, 1923

 

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As odd as it sounds I think if every helmet were real it might actually take some of the desire to learn out of it And buying a fake lid or more than once sometimes is the best lesson to make you want to try harder, And ALL lids would be expensive I would think so you could not score a super rare lid for peanuts. I am not defending either side just my thoughts.

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Grant, im not jumping on the lynch mob wagon but i have a few questions as im sure others do too....

are you ok with the fact that you sold a Inland liner for $256 that if unaltered would have sold for im guessing $100+ give or take....the altered liner is listed in the original WWII section....this liner has been altered by someone removing four rivets and adding four repro rivets after repro A straps were added, then two holes were drilled in the side and the repro para snaps added....this liner has been molested and its still in the original section....also whoever bought this...if they are a reenactor could have bought a new made para liner for much cheaper....maybe they will intend on reselling this as an original....or they are a new collector who didnt know better ...or they mis read your vague one line disclosure that the a straps are added......if this auction were in the proper section and had REPRO in big letters and not so much mentioning about how much of it is original people wouldnt be so worked up about it.....100% honesty would have solved the whole issue, not to mention that you are on a slippery slope with this repro stuff being aged and let out into the wild, sure forum members shouldnt be able to tell you what to do with your own helmets, but i think morals come into play and it must be easy to get caught up in the money part of it....you are a good guy and most of us know you and its worrying to see these things happen thats all....most of us here are big believers on originality and history ....i feel you are being seduced by the dark side is all im saying.......mike

Always looking for and buying 50's era 11th Airborne/ 187th ARCT/ 82nd Airborne tac mark painted jump helmets!



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As odd as it sounds I think if every helmet were real it might actually take some of the desire to learn out of it And buying a fake lid or more than once sometimes is the best lesson to make you want to try harder, And ALL lids would be expensive I would think so you could not score a super rare lid for peanuts. I am not defending either side just my thoughts.

 

actually, i believe that if there were more untouched lids the price would be lower than higher. when there is a shortage of untouched lids which i am guessing might happen due to the amount of fake helmets out there the price will go up.

 

Mike,

 

i agree with you 100%

 

phiip

Actively Seeking:

WW2 USN/USMC Attributed/Named Purple Heart Groups

WW2 USN/USMC Combat Aviation Groups

 

WW2 and Prior USN/USMC Medal Groups

 

Contact me if you have something

 



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Grant, im not jumping on the lynch mob wagon but i have a few questions as im sure others do too....

are you ok with the fact that you sold a Inland liner for $256 that if unaltered would have sold for im guessing $100+ give or take....the altered liner is listed in the original WWII section....this liner has been altered by someone removing four rivets and adding four repro rivets after repro A straps were added, then two holes were drilled in the side and the repro para snaps added....this liner has been molested and its still in the original section....also whoever bought this...if they are a reenactor could have bought a new made para liner for much cheaper....maybe they will intend on reselling this as an original....or they are a new collector who didnt know better ...or they mis read your vague one line disclosure that the a straps are added......if this auction were in the proper section and had REPRO in big letters and not so much mentioning about how much of it is original people wouldnt be so worked up about it.....100% honesty would have solved the whole issue, not to mention that you are on a slippery slope with this repro stuff being aged and let out into the wild, sure forum members shouldnt be able to tell you what to do with your own helmets, but i think morals come into play and it must be easy to get caught up in the money part of it....you are a good guy and most of us know you and its worrying to see these things happen thats all....most of us here are big believers on originality and history ....i feel you are being seduced by the dark side is all im saying.......mike

If you are asking what I think you are asking, whether or not I am disappointed that my liner sold as high as it did, then no I am perfectly fine with it selling for the price it did. In my opinion, I was 100% honest. I told what was real on it, and I told what was not real on it. I can not, and neither should anyone else for that matter, jump that far into the "what if drawer". Speculations such as whether or not my "buyer could not read a listing" or was "caught up in the moment" shouldn't even be brought up in this discussion. The item sold for what it did because at least two people wanted it bad enough.

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Grant, im not jumping on the lynch mob wagon but i have a few questions as im sure others do too....

are you ok with the fact that you sold a Inland liner for $256 that if unaltered would have sold for im guessing $100+ give or take....the altered liner is listed in the original WWII section....this liner has been altered by someone removing four rivets and adding four repro rivets after repro A straps were added, then two holes were drilled in the side and the repro para snaps added....this liner has been molested and its still in the original section....also whoever bought this...if they are a reenactor could have bought a new made para liner for much cheaper....maybe they will intend on reselling this as an original....or they are a new collector who didnt know better ...or they mis read your vague one line disclosure that the a straps are added......if this auction were in the proper section and had REPRO in big letters and not so much mentioning about how much of it is original people wouldnt be so worked up about it.....100% honesty would have solved the whole issue, not to mention that you are on a slippery slope with this repro stuff being aged and let out into the wild, sure forum members shouldnt be able to tell you what to do with your own helmets, but i think morals come into play and it must be easy to get caught up in the money part of it....you are a good guy and most of us know you and its worrying to see these things happen thats all....most of us here are big believers on originality and history ....i feel you are being seduced by the dark side is all im saying.......mike

 

Well said Mike :thumbsup: And the bold Grant, goes back to some of the conversations you and I had last year on the matter. I am not attacking you or speaking out against you personally, but rather what it is you are into and what you are doing.

Learn to ride hard, shoot straight, dance well and so live that you can, if necessary, look any man in the eye and tell him to go to Hell! US Cavalry Manual, 1923

 

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I'm not jumping on anyone here and taking any sides but the bottom line is....if Grant had purchased a stamp that said,"made by Grant using repro material and hardware in Nov. 2011" and stamped the webbing in the crown of the liner I dare say he would still have it. He couldn't give it away! I have talked on this forum about my friend who makes, I believe the finest repro web gear, among other items out there today. After I commented several times here about his work and that some of it was selling on bay as real, some sort of came down on him. I told him what happened so he decided to mark a batch of items. Btw he makes his gear using original WWII webbing, straps, hardware, edging trim and thread. He took that batch of items to the show at Nashville a couple of years back, and he had to eat it. Still has it as nobody would buy it with the clear repro marks on the inside. He went back to his old way of not marking it. As for a solution, I don't have one. I guess it's sort of like tv...if you don't like a program...don't watch it and if someone makes a repro item and you know it just don't buy it.

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As for the price of the liner , any serious collector should see from a mile away that these yokes are reproductions. And it is stated in the description also.

I guess someone really wanted that liner, knowing it was not 100% original. Anyone thinking to score an inland para liner for 200 - 300 dollars is a fool.

When you decide to buy one , you read the description a few times to be sure.

 

My thought is , whoever bought this liner is either a fool or he wanted it badly.

" You can manufacture weapons and you can purchase ammunition,

But you can't buy valor and you can't pull heroes off an assembly line ".

 

-Sergeant John B. Ellery-

U.S. 1st Infantry Division

 

Hang Tough my friend!

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These are the reasons I sold almost all the painted helmets I had, and I had some pretty nice ones.

 

It's also the reason I sold almost all the M1 Carbines I had and the reason I'll never buy another one. (parts swapping - restoring to "ORIGINAL")

 

Etc

 

Etc

 

Etc

 

Many thanks to all the basement Bubba's who have made it this way.

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As for a solution, I don't have one. I guess it's sort of like tv...if you don't like a program...don't watch it and if someone makes a repro item and you know it just don't buy it.

 

Ronnie, the problem isn't so much when the repro artist or faker is selling them, its when these things change hands a few times and someone else gets greedy trying to sell them as original. So just turning a blind eye to this situation doesn't fix anything. Mark my word, one day there will be no market for painted lids without provenance if we continue down this road. Bottom line, it just boils down to morals and ethics or the lack thereof.

 

Steve

Visit my website http://www.m1helmetdepot.com/ for Nice M-1 helmets and parts

 

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We will close this to further comment before it goes in circles too many times. This topic keeps coming up and frankly anyone who makes and sells these has to be prepared to face the heat: on this forum we try to keep it from becoming personal attacks, but we understand the wrath and that there are no reasons or excuses that will quiet the critics and so until the next time it comes up......


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