Can anyone help identify?

[dbchris]

Can anyone help identify these patches? I found them with an old 1914 holster that I'm trying to pinpoint the owner of. I think one of these patches is for an officer who was an engineer in the military which could be my link. Can anyone give me the time frame, I believe they are WWI patches is this correct?

Any help would be appreciated, ty

[dbchris]

Actually maybe someone here could help me. I have this holster signed with a name, it is a Colt .45 M1911 from Rock Island Arsenal dated 1914. Under it has a name and then says "Aero Division". What is the best way to go about finding the Lt. behind the holster. I've checked Ancestry.com and found a draft card from WWI for 1917 from someone who I believe the holster belonged to, yet from my knowledge just because there was a draft card doesn't mean he actually entered the military. The draft card is dated June 1917 and I found the same initials in a book about Naval Militia and all signs point to it being his holster however I cannot link that he actually joined the military or if he was drafted during this time frame. It's a really interesting find, the person who I hope it belonged to later went on to become a very famous photographer. I've already contacted the RIA Museum and I've put in some letters to other Museums that hold his photography collections. I'm now stumped on where to search from here. Any experts in this area have any suggestions?

[dbchris]

So far the RIA museum was able to help me identify the Inspector to the holster from Rock Island Arsenal. The famous photographer during the time frame of WWI has little or no information for him in his bio's. He didn't go on to opening his own photography studio until the 1930's which would make him 35 years old. He was 23 years old when he signed his draft card that I was able to locate. His draft card also states he worked for General Electric Co. at the time, and his bio's state that he went to school in Mass. for Engineer work.

 

I've been looking into GE Co. and I believe many of the Engineers went onto the war during that time frame and they were involved in aero developments for war production. The link from the book seems like the Lt. named could have in fact been the photographer, in the book it's talking about Naval militia in Mass. which is where the photographer would have been living at the time. Did he get drafted or enter the war is what I'm trying to find out and I've been searching out the information without much luck. I know Penn State University holds all of his original works from the 1930's on and that Colonial Williamsburg Museum also holds a collection on him. At this point I'm not sure where to look or how to continue my research. All signs are pointing to the fact that it may have been his. These patches which were found with the holster I'm wondering if they could be a link. I see the officer patch which is an Engineer patch. The book mentions the Aero Club of America, and the holster says Aero Division. Anyone have any suggestions on here to go from here? I have little experience with military collectibles but this has become a project and has been very exciting. I'm hoping I can link it to the same person

[Capt.Confederacy]

Can anyone help identify these patches? I found them with an old 1914 holster that I'm trying to pinpoint the owner of. I think one of these patches is for an officer who was an engineer in the military which could be my link. Can anyone give me the time frame, I believe they are WWI patches is this correct?

 

Any help would be appreciated, ty

 

 

 

It looks like you've mainly got 1902-style army rank chevrons with some Navy ones thrown into the mix. (I don't collect Navy stuff that much so I'll have to let someone else answer what those are.) However, as to the army, I think I can be of assistance. The chevron colors during that period beginning in 1902 were color coordinated for the branch of service. If memory serves correctly, white is for infantry, yellow for cavalry, red for artillery, etc. The ones with the diamonds represent the rank of first sergeant. The one with the crossed drum sticks is band. The one with the flaming bomb is ordnance. The one with the hunting horn is trumpeter. The small patch with the crossed flags is signal corps.

 

If you decide to sell any of the army ones, drop me an email.

[Brian Keith]

What is the provenance of the holster and why do you believe it belongs to this particular person? If there is no real link to the original suspected person, other than the initials, then I think you have a tough time proving the ownership. If you got it from the family of the person you suspect originally owned it than I can see why you want to follow up on the possible connection.

Like Capt. Confederacy said, they all pre-WWI era insignias, if your man was in service in WW I, it is unlikely he would have amassed this collection. And this is a collection, no single person in history would have worn each of these insignia. They are very nice selection of early chevrons and specialist’s insignia.

BKW

[dbchris]

The Holster is dated 1914 and it says "F.S. Lincoln" across it and then "Aero Division" under that. There was a photographer named "Fay S. Lincoln" who focused on military and political in the early 1930's but later architecture. He was a very famous photographer, many of his prints went to Sotheby's that weren't donated to Penn State University or various other museums.

 

I found from Google books, "Textbook of Naval Aeronautics" By Henry Woodhouse which was very interesting and talks about an officer "F.S. Lincoln" during 1917.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=aCAfAAAAM...Qf3QsLOSV8MwqV8

 

So far I know he went to school to become an Engineer, and then worked for General

Electric Co. when he was 23 years old and signed that draft card in June of 1917.

 

There is very little about Fay S. Lincoln's life in Bio's that I've found just prior to the 1930's so it makes me wonder if he was in the military.

 

It may not be his but if so I'm trying to find out if Fay entered the military during this time frame. The holster is a Rock Island Arsenal Holster giving it a value between 200-300, it went into production in 1914 and the "F.S. Lincoln Aero Division" just really has me curious at this point.

 

Fay S. Lincoln passed in 1975, I might be on a wild goose chase and it could end up being any F.S. Lincoln. I'm wondering if the Textbook above that mentions an officer F.S. Lincoln could have been the same officer who owned this holster. And then my second question is....is that F.S. Lincoln the famous photographer Fay S. Lincoln.

 

Just a goose chase probably but very interesting.

 

Those patches were found with the holster, the one that is an officer and Engineer I'm wondering if it could have been from this same F.S. Lincoln?

[dbchris]

Thank you for your help with the patches!

[dbchris]

The RIA museum was able to give me the inspectors name of the holster which is marked with the 1914 stamp w/ inspectors initials under that. Here are photos of the holster itself...

I found it in an old storage cleanout. I went to list it on EBay and came across a prob. but then I was thinking it might be for the best until I've at least tried to research it more. I was going to sell because I could really use the money before Christmas however now I'm starting to become attached to the holster trying to
learn more about who F.S. Lincoln was.

[dbchris]

 

[dbchris]

I listed it on EBay very low, beginning at $30 and figured it would get bid up to around the price range that the other Rock Island Arsenal holsters go for (range $200-$300 in nice condition). However I had a feedback issue that was due to my own fault from back in Sept. that I tried to correct, but EBay removed all of my listings due to their 90 day rule. I only had a couple of feedbacks within 90 days and because of neg. ones that were due to my own fault (and corrected) I couldn't list anymore items so EBay pulled 35 auctions. I was going to cry but then I'm thinking it might be for the best until I continue to research it. There were 18 people watching this holster auction before it was taken down with the rest of my listings and it got up to $100 in bids before it came down with a few days remaining on the auction. I continued to research and the more I've found the more excited it's been to see if it could in fact have been Fay's. As I said I might be on a wild goose chase but the more I read and research the less I want to part with it. I was launching the auctions for extra Christmas funds but now I'm happy it was ripped until I learn more.

 

I cannot find much on Fay's life prior to 1930 and it just has me wondering, could it be the same person? He went by "F.S. Lincoln" with almost everything he did and not Fay. Who knows it could have been a Frank or a Francis or just any officer in the military at that time but I'm still searching to see if anything links Fay to the mil. during that time frame

[Brian Keith]

OK, I see it is a sir name and initinals and not just initinals, you have a good start on making that association. Yes, one of the patches is for an engineer, but it is for an operating engineer, a locomotive, a steam engine, or similar device. not a design engineer.

While interesting, the maker and inspector of the holster offers no clue to the "F.S. Lincoln" of the "Aero Division" it was issued to, the date is important as it gives you a time frame to rule out earlier than 1914 use.

While I don't focus on the WW I era, I do think that the term "Aero Division" would have been used by the Navy on a larger ship or station that had aircraft attached. The divided up the ship's crew into "divisions". In the Army at that time I don't think they would use the term "Aero Division". A division is a very large organization and there were no such thing as an "Aero Division".

None of these insigna are for a comissiones officer, they are either for PFC's or NCO's.

All for now.

BKW

[dbchris]

During WWI didn't the Signal Corps deal with Aeronautical? I wonder if that has to do with the "Aero Division" on the holster? I was wondering about the officer Engineer patch.

[dbchris]

Thank you Brian, it's going to take me a bit to research all of this information as I'm not very well aware of WWI military history although I should be. I'm prior mil. myself (AF) and I think I'm beginning a new interest in learning about mil field gear.

 

It's been fun to try to pin point this, as for any of the patches that couldn't be related to the holster I'll be happy to share them with the collectors here. The information and help is appreciated, Capt. please private message your address & the patches you are interested in.

[dbchris]

OK, I see it is a sir name and initinals and not just initinals, you have a good start on making that association. Yes, one of the patches is for an engineer, but it is for an operating engineer, a locomotive, a steam engine, or similar device. not a design engineer.

 

 

Ahhh okay that makes sense.

 

While I don't focus on the WW I era, I do think that the term "Aero Division" would have been used by the Navy on a larger ship or station that had aircraft attached.

 

The RIA museum director gave me links to two different groups, I'll put that information and post it here. That would make sense as well as I couldn't find much searching "Aero Division" and WWI.

 

 

 

The divided up the ship's crew into "divisions". In the Army at that time I don't think they would use the term "Aero Division". A division is a very large organization and there were no such thing as an "Aero Division".

None of these insigna are for a comissiones officer, they are either for PFC's or NCO's.

 

 

Great thank you

[dbchris]

The director from RIA was a wonderful help. She took the time to emailed this information to me. I'll see if I can past up the Fay S. Lincoln draft card image here

his "D" and his "N" seem very much like the name written on the holster.

 

Copied:

 

 

 

"information is attached to verify that your holster is for the M1911

pistol, .45 caliber. Also attached is basic information on the

inspector of the holster, JNS, John Nicholas Schmidt.

 

There are two divisions that are listed as "Arrow Divisions." One is

the Red Arrow Division, and the other is the Gold Arrow Division. There

are websites for the veterans of each of these organizations, and you

may be able to obtain assistance from the members on the identification

of Lieutenant F.S. Lincoln.

 

Tracking down Lieutenant F.S. Lincoln will be a difficult task. There

are sources available if you know details about the individual and are a

relative.

 

32nd Division - Red Arrow Division

http://www.32nd-division.org/

 

8th Infantry Division - Golden Arrow Division or Pathfinders

http://www.militaria.com/8th/8thid.html

 

Contact information for Michigan and Wisconsin National Guard Museums:

 

Fort Custer Museum

Michigan National Guard

2501 26th Street

Augusta, MI 49012-9205

269-731-3505

 

Wisconsin National Guard Memorial Library and Museum

Volk CRTC

101 Independence Drive

Camp Douglas, WI 54618-9002

608-427-1280

[dbchris]

Actually I see now that she must have thought I said "arrow" and not "aero" ok sorry about that, those divisions must not be related. There was a 10 page attachment regarding the inspector J.N.S. and identifying the holster. The only difference I do see is that most of the RIA M1911 Holsters had the stamp on the outside of the leather. This one has the stamp under a flap on the leather, unlike almost all Colt .45 RIA holsters from that time.

[dbchris]

It would be wonderful if one of those patches linked with the holster but I cannot be sure since most likely it was a collection. This is getting more interesting though, because I found early aviation photos from Fay S. Lincoln

Could this be the same "Aero Division" ?

 

 

"Establishment of Signal Corps Aviation and World War I

 

 

Signal Corps Balloon Signal Corps Balloon

 

In 1907, the Aeronautical Division was established within the Office of the Chief Signal Officer of the Army and put in charge "of all matters pertaining to military ballooning, air machines, and all kindred subjects on hand." The Signal Corps fleet consisted of two balloons and one dirigible, when in 1909, the Army acquired Signal Corps Airplane No. 1. Congress, however, limited further spending on "military aeronautics" so that in 1910 the total Aeronautical Division consisted of only four air vehicles and 27 men.

 

Many Europeans viewed the Wright brothers' invention as a potentially powerful war machine and consequently, embraced the technology, adding air units to their conventional military forces. The United States, on the other hand, isolated from the impending threat of war and slowed by patent disputes among aircraft manufacturers, neglected to see the advantages of aviation. Wright Airplane DH-4

 

When World War I began in the summer of 1914, the United States was ill-prepared to assist the allies in fighting an air war. In July 1914 the Army Signal Corps Aviation Section, the successor to the Aeronautical Division, had 30 aircraft and 40 pilots. When the United States entered the war in April 1917, the numbers had risen to some 200 airplanes, none combat worthy, and fewer than 1,200 men assigned to the Aviation Section. At the time of the Armistice on 11 November 1918, of the total 16,831 airplanes the Army had received, only 6,287 had been delivered to the American Expeditionary Force. Of these, none were of American design. Most were British DeHavillands with two French Le Peres. Wilbur Wright Field 1920 Map of Wilbur Wright Field

 

Responding to the Signal Corps' urgent need to train pilots, Edward A. Deeds, a local Dayton industrialist, arranged in 1917 for the lease of over 2,000 acres of land due east of Dayton in the Miami Conservancy District's Mad River flood plain, for use as a Signal Corps Aviation School and flying field. Encompassing the old Huffman Prairie Flying Field, this area was named Wilbur Wright Field in memory of the elder Wright brother who had died of typhoid fever in 1912. "

 

 

Wiki on "Aeronautical Division":

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeronautical_...S._Signal_Corps

 

The Aeronautical Division, U.S. Signal Corps (1907-1914) was the first progenitor of the United States Air Force, and as such is the first military air organization. A component of the U.S. Army Signal Corps, the Aeronautical Division did not contain any subordinate units during its existence.

 

 

Could that have been what "Aero Division" meant?

[dbchris]

oh my gosh I just found this:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_Sect...S._Signal_Corps

 

 

"The War Department came under severe criticism, particularly Major Billy Mitchell, acting head of the Aviation Section while its chief was in Mexico. Mitchell defended the service, insisting that the U.S. firms did not produce better aircraft, but the outcry produced several long-term results, including instructing Mitchell in political tactics for which he was later court-martialed. A new agency was also created within the Aviation Section, the Technical Advisory and Inspection Board, headed by Captain Thomas D. Milling, and staffed by pilots who had attended engineering course at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and civilian engineers, including Donald Douglas. The Board recommended a new squadron be equipped with Curtiss R-2s, using a 160-horsepower engine, but by the time they arrived in Mexico, operations were ending. In any event the aircraft were little better than their predecessors."

 

 

That was the same time frame of the holster I believe and Fay S. Lincoln went to the Mass. Inst. of Tech & was a civilian Engineer at that time frame. this could be a link. This would be the 1st Aero Sq. or the beginning of the creation of the AF, wiki says the Aero. Division turned into the Aviation Section, U.S. Signal Corps. The F.S. Lincoln in the book above talks about him being a student pilot who had not yet flown.

[dbchris]

Does anyone know if you can gain military records if you are not directly related, or if there is any place to search enlisted names for specific time frames?

[Brian Keith]

The holster is a cavalry version, it is missing the leg strap but is still in overall nice shape.

BKW

[Bob Hudson]

Does anyone know if you can gain military records if you are not directly related, or if there is any place to search enlisted names for specific time frames?

 

I think he is Army with the "Aero Division" marking: the Navy at the time had the "Office of Naval Aeronautics, Division of Operations (1914-15)"

 

and yes:

 

Fay Sturtevant Lincoln trained as a chemical engineer at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. As a photographer, he worked extensively throughout the eastern United States, receiving numerous commissions from architects in New York, and photographing the completed restoration at Williamsburg. His work was reproduced widely in such magazines as House Beautiful, National Geographic, Country Life, and Architectural Forum.

 

That's from: http://www.artfact.com/catalog/viewLot.cfm?lotCode=n35naS3c

[dbchris]

I just received a response back from Penn State!

 

FAY was in the military!!!

 

 

Fwd: Penn State Fay S. Lincoln Collection

 

Dear Christine,

 

Fay S. Lincoln (1894-1975) was a well-known and respected professional architectual/art photographer. He donated his photographic archive to Penn State University in 1973 shortly before his death. However, our collection does not include any of his personal papers or memorabilia. Over the years we have compiled some biographical reference information on Mr. Lincoln (his middle name was Sturtevant) from various photographic history sources--but nothing in great detail.

 

There is a smal biographical entry on F.S. Lincoln in Richard Pare's (editor) book Photography and Architecture, 1839-1939, pages 265-66. (See reference citation below)

 

According to the entry: " He (Lincoln) supported himself with his photography during study of chemical engineering at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, which he enterered in 1913. At the end of that academic year (1913), Lincoln left M.I.T. During World War I, he served in France, and after the armistice he attended courses at the university of Besancon, (France). In 1919 Lincoln re-entered M.I.T. as a student in biology, graduating in 1922 In 1929 he formed a partnership with Peter Nyholm, and by 1933 they had established a studio at 114 East 32nd Street in New York.

 

Unfortunately, information regarding hismilitary service record is sketchy but the above does confirm that he did serve in France during World War I.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Sincerely,

Jim Quigel

Head, Historical Collections and Labor Archives

 

Photography and architecture, 1839-1939

Centre canadien d'architecture.

Corporate Author: <http://cat.libraries.psu.edu/uhtbin/cgisirsi/vuVBDmfQwy/UP-PAT/327060339/18/X110/XAUTHOR/Centre+canadien+d%27architecture.>Centre canadien d'architecture.

Title: Photography and architecture, 1839-1939 / [edited by] Richard Pare ; introduction by Phyllis Lambert ; catalog by Catherine Evans Inbusch and Marjorie Munsterberg.

Publication info: Montreal, Canada : Centre canadien d'architecture/Canadian Centre for Architecture ; New York, N.Y. : [Distributed by] Callaway Editions, c1982.

Physical descrip: 282 p. : ill. ; 26 x 31 cm.

ISBN: 0935112065 : $55.00

ISBN: 0935112073 (pbk.) : $30.00

General Note: Includes index.

Bibliography note: Bibliography: p. 273-277.

Acquisitions source: Rare Books copy: Gift of Heinz and Bridget Henisch; 20067.

Subject: <http://cat.libraries.psu.edu/uhtbin/cgisirsi/nellXxwd18/UP-PAT/327060339/18/X650/XSUBJECT/Architectural+photography.>Architectural photography.

Subject: <http://cat.libraries.psu.edu/uhtbin/cgisirsi/nellXxwd18/UP-PAT/327060339/18/X650/XSUBJECT/Architecture+Pictorial+works.>Architecture--Pictorial works.

Added author: <http://cat.libraries.psu.edu/uhtbin/cgisirsi/nellXxwd18/UP-PAT/327060339/18/X700/XAUTHOR/Pare,+Richard.>Pare, Richard.

Added author: <http://cat.libraries.psu.edu/uhtbin/cgisirsi/nellXxwd18/UP-PAT/327060339/18/X700/XAUTHOR/Inbusch,+Catherine+Evans.>Inbusch, Catherine Evans.

Added author: <http://cat.libraries.psu.edu/uhtbin/cgisirsi/nellXxwd18/UP-PAT/327060339/18/X700/XAUTHOR/Munsterberg,+Marjorie.>Munsterberg, Marjorie.

[dbchris]

"I think he is Army with the "Aero Division" marking: the Navy at the time had the "Office of Naval Aeronautics, Division of Operations (1914-15)"


Admin do you think the F.S. Lincoln in the Naval textbook is related or would that be two seperate branches? I'm a bit confused about the divisions. So you think this F.S. Lincoln was more likely to be Army then Navy?

Here is Fay S. Lincoln's draft card that I found on Ancestry.com

[dbchris]

another question I have is this. When I was in the military we wrote out our own names on field equipment. Was this the same in the past? Was it likely that the F.S. Lincoln this belonged to wrote this out or would someone else have written it and gave it to him? I was looking at his second Draft card on Ancestry.com (for WWI) which was in print not script and looking at Fay S. Lincoln's writing style and the "N" and the "D" looked kind of similiar to the holster but I'm really unsure

Do you think the F.S. Lincoln owner of this holster wrote that himself, was it stamped?, or was it written out for them? It's black lettering kind of a block style.

[dbchris]

"The holster is a cavalry version, it is missing the leg strap but is still in overall nice shape. "

BKW

 

I'm sorry for my ignorance I don't know what cavalry version means