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Tiffany Cross Recipients


emccomas
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Ingram's award was posthumous, and Find a Grave says he was buried at sea. Interestingly, his Find a Grave entry has a Tiffany Cross image posted. I've emailed the poster to see why he may have made that choice.

 

...Mick

 

The Find a Grave poster quickly replied, and basically he said he was just following the Navy's rules. :)

 

...Mick

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Ed -

 

Thanks. To you have a copy of the NY Times article Mark C mentions on Page 8? If the NY Times says it's so, I'd color it confirmed. I have access to ProQuest, but I can't pull it up.

 

...Mick

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According to the book 'The Call of Duty', page50, The Tiffany Cross (1919-1942) was awarded for valor in combat and the type-V (Worn around the neck) was awarded for non-combat valor.

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According to the book 'The Call of Duty', page50, The Tiffany Cross (1919-1942) was awarded for valor in combat and the type-V (Worn around the neck) was awarded for non-combat valor.

 

Trouble is, FF -

 

Is that there are three documented cases by photographic evidence for the Tiffany Cross to be awarded to non-combat: Byrd, Bennett, and Siegel.

 

...Mick

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We know that Christian Schilt's medal was the LAST TC ever awarded. Several sources confirm this is a fact. So every medal after 1931 would have to be a Star version. This really limits the number of men eligible to have received it.

 

Mark Costa

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Mark - How many swap-outs are you aware of? I can find Byrd's two ceremonies. Are there others? And do you know of any assessment of Byrd's motives? I could believe he requested the star pattern because he knew the combat relation of the TC, and at least in this bit, he was trying to right things. Just a theory. He could also subscribe to the CMOHS view that the TC looked like the Iron Cross, and wanted different.

 

...Mick

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question that has nothing to do with the Tiffany MOH but a general MOH question.I know you can not own, sell or trade the MOH or any parts of the MOH.But Can you own or sell the unofficial mini MOH's? I'm talking about the ones from like the 30's or so.

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question that has nothing to do with the Tiffany MOH but a general MOH question.I know you can not own, sell or trade the MOH or any parts of the MOH.But Can you own or sell the unofficial mini MOH's? I'm talking about the ones from like the 30's or so.

 

Tought question. The miniatures were never official, so they are not replicas of govt issue MOH. However, you may have a hassle with the government over this distinction. Probably should be prepared for a legal battle. Just my 2 cents.

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Mark - How many swap-outs are you aware of? I can find Byrd's two ceremonies. Are there others? And do you know of any assessment of Byrd's motives? I could believe he requested the star pattern because he knew the combat relation of the TC, and at least in this bit, he was trying to right things. Just a theory. He could also subscribe to the CMOHS view that the TC looked like the Iron Cross, and wanted different.

 

...Mick

 

The CMOHS thoughts on the TC are relatively recent and really have nothing to do with the real motives of those handful of men that requested the star version after the TC was abolished. None of the recipients "swapped" their medals. They were allowed to keep the TC after they received their "star" versions. The TC was created as a "combat" award and its design was in keeping with the other most highly honored combat award -- The British Victoria Cross. It is no accident that the design of the TC resembles the VC and note the word Valour on the TC is spelt in the British way like the VC, instead of the American version of Valor. I believe the real reason that they "swapped" their medals was because the design was so different than previous MOH's and was not easily recognizable as such. The Navy itself thought the dual MOH's to be too confusing and hence sent the TC into oblivion.

 

Mark

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  • 4 months later...
Mark Costa

Here is a photo of Christian Schilt's actual Tiffany Cross Medal of Honor on display at the National Museum of the Marine Corps.

 

Mark Costa

 

 

post-2602-0-95112100-1367944812.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...
LuftStalg1

Specifically with regard to the two images of Siegel’s medal. The image from the book COD notice the drop in barrel clasp and hinge VS the standard barrel clasp and hinge in the photocopy photo of the medal at the LA county museum. Also the wavy surface and rounded edges of the COD piece VS the smooth surface with abrasion markings and the sharp crisp edges of the LA piece. And of course there is the difference in the ribbon length and stitching between the two.

Hey guys,

 

Well it has been a long time coming but I just got a copy of Siegel's service record. I am still reading over it all but it confirms that he was issued "2" medals, that is his original and a dup in 1941 stating the original was lost in a fire about 1935. Turns out that the duplicate was mistakenly provided to him in that any one whose discharge was less the honorable shall not receive the MOH for prior actions. However they did not issue the ribbon bar and he was forced to get it elsewhere once they realized they should not have provided the medal. He had deserted for more then two yes two years during his first enlistment in 1909 and spent time in the pin and a dishonorable discharge. He was allowed to reenlist in 1917 and after receiving his MOH he went missing again and thus received his "second" dishonorable discharge. He again tried to enlist a third time in 1929 but was denied this time and disappeared, other then his request for the replacement in 1935 and then again in 1941.

 

The good news is, we are getting closer to proving the link to his true grave in Gary, Indiana and hopefully a proper government grave marker.

 

Mark D

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Regarding Siegel's medal at the LA County Museum of Natural history; Mostly likely it was part of the Robert B. Honeyman, Jr. collection of worldwide medals that was donated to the museum, I think in the 1950s. I heard a story years ago that a shady individual got access to the collection (after it was donated to the museum) and stole a number of items as well as swapping out some of the rare medals with fakes. (I know of at least one medal that is now in a private collection that was originally supposed to have been in the Honeyman collection.) Based on the differences in the two images of the Siegel medal shown earlier in this thread, it may be one of the medals that was "swapped out" with a copy. It would be interesting to know when and where the photo in the COD was taken.

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Adam;

 

I believe that we were able to confirm earlier in this thread that the Siegel medal in the Los Angeles County Museum of Nautral History came from the Honeyman collection. We also now know the Siegel got two MOHs, the original and a replacement. That may explain the differences in the two pictures. It would be interesting to find out where the COD picture came from.

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OK, so I confess to having been side tracked from the Tiffany Cross Research effort.

 

With that admission come two questions>>

 

1. Do we need to start a new thread for this topic.

2. Do we (I) need to do a recap of where we are in the research effort?

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LuftStalg1

Adam & Ed,

 

Yup, it was confirmed Siegel's medal in the LAC Museum came from the Honeyman collection. Now the COD photo is a good question. I think I have his number, as he was kind enough to provide me with a copy of the Rickenbacker photo from COD for my display. I'll see If I can find it and give him a ring and ask about that photo. Really nice guy to visit with!

 

Mark D

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LuftStalg1

OK, so I confess to having been side tracked from the Tiffany Cross Research effort.

 

With that admission come two questions>>

 

1. Do we need to start a new thread for this topic.

2. Do we (I) need to do a recap of where we are in the research effort?

 

Your right Ed, probably a good idea to refresh so we don't have to look back over the pages.

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  • 5 weeks later...

Just heard back from Roger Bender. Unfortunately he did not have any reference as to were the photo of Siegel's engraved medal came from. He did commend us on the work we are doing! Some really good things coming from our forum members. But the search for answers continues.

 

Happy hunting,

Mark D.

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  • 3 months later...

Does anyone know of a photograph of Siegel that exists?

Ed, none have been found yet. Still looking. Locating family members from his second marriage might be the only hope now but as he had problems with his, you know what, I don't believe he had any children with his second wife and only managed to have the one girl with his first.

 

Regards,

Mark

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