Mick536 Posted December 12, 2012 Share #326 Posted December 12, 2012 Ingram's award was posthumous, and Find a Grave says he was buried at sea. Interestingly, his Find a Grave entry has a Tiffany Cross image posted. I've emailed the poster to see why he may have made that choice. ...Mick The Find a Grave poster quickly replied, and basically he said he was just following the Navy's rules. ...Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick536 Posted December 12, 2012 Share #327 Posted December 12, 2012 Ed - What newspaper is the reference for your list? ...Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emccomas Posted December 13, 2012 Author Share #328 Posted December 13, 2012 Ed - What newspaper is the reference for your list? ...Mick Olean, NY Nov 11, 1920 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emccomas Posted December 13, 2012 Author Share #329 Posted December 13, 2012 Close up of named recipients Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick536 Posted December 14, 2012 Share #330 Posted December 14, 2012 Ed - Thanks. To you have a copy of the NY Times article Mark C mentions on Page 8? If the NY Times says it's so, I'd color it confirmed. I have access to ProQuest, but I can't pull it up. ...Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firefighter Posted December 14, 2012 Share #331 Posted December 14, 2012 According to the book 'The Call of Duty', page50, The Tiffany Cross (1919-1942) was awarded for valor in combat and the type-V (Worn around the neck) was awarded for non-combat valor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick536 Posted December 15, 2012 Share #332 Posted December 15, 2012 According to the book 'The Call of Duty', page50, The Tiffany Cross (1919-1942) was awarded for valor in combat and the type-V (Worn around the neck) was awarded for non-combat valor. Trouble is, FF - Is that there are three documented cases by photographic evidence for the Tiffany Cross to be awarded to non-combat: Byrd, Bennett, and Siegel. ...Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Costa Posted December 15, 2012 Share #333 Posted December 15, 2012 We know that Christian Schilt's medal was the LAST TC ever awarded. Several sources confirm this is a fact. So every medal after 1931 would have to be a Star version. This really limits the number of men eligible to have received it. Mark Costa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick536 Posted December 16, 2012 Share #334 Posted December 16, 2012 Mark - How many swap-outs are you aware of? I can find Byrd's two ceremonies. Are there others? And do you know of any assessment of Byrd's motives? I could believe he requested the star pattern because he knew the combat relation of the TC, and at least in this bit, he was trying to right things. Just a theory. He could also subscribe to the CMOHS view that the TC looked like the Iron Cross, and wanted different. ...Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firefighter Posted December 17, 2012 Share #335 Posted December 17, 2012 question that has nothing to do with the Tiffany MOH but a general MOH question.I know you can not own, sell or trade the MOH or any parts of the MOH.But Can you own or sell the unofficial mini MOH's? I'm talking about the ones from like the 30's or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emccomas Posted December 17, 2012 Author Share #336 Posted December 17, 2012 question that has nothing to do with the Tiffany MOH but a general MOH question.I know you can not own, sell or trade the MOH or any parts of the MOH.But Can you own or sell the unofficial mini MOH's? I'm talking about the ones from like the 30's or so. Tought question. The miniatures were never official, so they are not replicas of govt issue MOH. However, you may have a hassle with the government over this distinction. Probably should be prepared for a legal battle. Just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Costa Posted December 24, 2012 Share #337 Posted December 24, 2012 Mark - How many swap-outs are you aware of? I can find Byrd's two ceremonies. Are there others? And do you know of any assessment of Byrd's motives? I could believe he requested the star pattern because he knew the combat relation of the TC, and at least in this bit, he was trying to right things. Just a theory. He could also subscribe to the CMOHS view that the TC looked like the Iron Cross, and wanted different. ...Mick The CMOHS thoughts on the TC are relatively recent and really have nothing to do with the real motives of those handful of men that requested the star version after the TC was abolished. None of the recipients "swapped" their medals. They were allowed to keep the TC after they received their "star" versions. The TC was created as a "combat" award and its design was in keeping with the other most highly honored combat award -- The British Victoria Cross. It is no accident that the design of the TC resembles the VC and note the word Valour on the TC is spelt in the British way like the VC, instead of the American version of Valor. I believe the real reason that they "swapped" their medals was because the design was so different than previous MOH's and was not easily recognizable as such. The Navy itself thought the dual MOH's to be too confusing and hence sent the TC into oblivion. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Costa Posted May 7, 2013 Share #338 Posted May 7, 2013 Here is a photo of Christian Schilt's actual Tiffany Cross Medal of Honor on display at the National Museum of the Marine Corps. Mark Costa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emccomas Posted May 8, 2013 Author Share #339 Posted May 8, 2013 Nice. Thanks Mark. Slowly but surely we get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftStalg1 Posted May 21, 2013 Share #340 Posted May 21, 2013 Specifically with regard to the two images of Siegel’s medal. The image from the book COD notice the drop in barrel clasp and hinge VS the standard barrel clasp and hinge in the photocopy photo of the medal at the LA county museum. Also the wavy surface and rounded edges of the COD piece VS the smooth surface with abrasion markings and the sharp crisp edges of the LA piece. And of course there is the difference in the ribbon length and stitching between the two. Hey guys, Well it has been a long time coming but I just got a copy of Siegel's service record. I am still reading over it all but it confirms that he was issued "2" medals, that is his original and a dup in 1941 stating the original was lost in a fire about 1935. Turns out that the duplicate was mistakenly provided to him in that any one whose discharge was less the honorable shall not receive the MOH for prior actions. However they did not issue the ribbon bar and he was forced to get it elsewhere once they realized they should not have provided the medal. He had deserted for more then two yes two years during his first enlistment in 1909 and spent time in the pin and a dishonorable discharge. He was allowed to reenlist in 1917 and after receiving his MOH he went missing again and thus received his "second" dishonorable discharge. He again tried to enlist a third time in 1929 but was denied this time and disappeared, other then his request for the replacement in 1935 and then again in 1941. The good news is, we are getting closer to proving the link to his true grave in Gary, Indiana and hopefully a proper government grave marker. Mark D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam R Posted May 21, 2013 Share #341 Posted May 21, 2013 Regarding Siegel's medal at the LA County Museum of Natural history; Mostly likely it was part of the Robert B. Honeyman, Jr. collection of worldwide medals that was donated to the museum, I think in the 1950s. I heard a story years ago that a shady individual got access to the collection (after it was donated to the museum) and stole a number of items as well as swapping out some of the rare medals with fakes. (I know of at least one medal that is now in a private collection that was originally supposed to have been in the Honeyman collection.) Based on the differences in the two images of the Siegel medal shown earlier in this thread, it may be one of the medals that was "swapped out" with a copy. It would be interesting to know when and where the photo in the COD was taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emccomas Posted May 21, 2013 Author Share #342 Posted May 21, 2013 Adam; I believe that we were able to confirm earlier in this thread that the Siegel medal in the Los Angeles County Museum of Nautral History came from the Honeyman collection. We also now know the Siegel got two MOHs, the original and a replacement. That may explain the differences in the two pictures. It would be interesting to find out where the COD picture came from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emccomas Posted May 22, 2013 Author Share #343 Posted May 22, 2013 OK, so I confess to having been side tracked from the Tiffany Cross Research effort. With that admission come two questions>> 1. Do we need to start a new thread for this topic. 2. Do we (I) need to do a recap of where we are in the research effort? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftStalg1 Posted May 28, 2013 Share #344 Posted May 28, 2013 Adam & Ed, Yup, it was confirmed Siegel's medal in the LAC Museum came from the Honeyman collection. Now the COD photo is a good question. I think I have his number, as he was kind enough to provide me with a copy of the Rickenbacker photo from COD for my display. I'll see If I can find it and give him a ring and ask about that photo. Really nice guy to visit with! Mark D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftStalg1 Posted May 28, 2013 Share #345 Posted May 28, 2013 OK, so I confess to having been side tracked from the Tiffany Cross Research effort. With that admission come two questions>> 1. Do we need to start a new thread for this topic. 2. Do we (I) need to do a recap of where we are in the research effort? Your right Ed, probably a good idea to refresh so we don't have to look back over the pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftStalg1 Posted June 27, 2013 Share #346 Posted June 27, 2013 Just heard back from Roger Bender. Unfortunately he did not have any reference as to were the photo of Siegel's engraved medal came from. He did commend us on the work we are doing! Some really good things coming from our forum members. But the search for answers continues. Happy hunting, Mark D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emccomas Posted June 28, 2013 Author Share #347 Posted June 28, 2013 OK, I'll get the data gathered to date synched up and post a status in a new thread. Stand by..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftStalg1 Posted June 28, 2013 Share #348 Posted June 28, 2013 Tiffany Cross part Du? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edhooper Posted October 10, 2013 Share #349 Posted October 10, 2013 Does anyone know of a photograph of Siegel that exists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftStalg1 Posted October 10, 2013 Share #350 Posted October 10, 2013 Does anyone know of a photograph of Siegel that exists? Ed, none have been found yet. Still looking. Locating family members from his second marriage might be the only hope now but as he had problems with his, you know what, I don't believe he had any children with his second wife and only managed to have the one girl with his first. Regards, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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