Tiffany Cross Recipients

[emccomas]

That does make it a bit more interesting. I appreciate your assistance. So, just to make it clear to all, we are looking for evidence of type of Medal of Honor awarded for:

 

Ora Graves - There is a1957 photo of Graves wearing 5 point star MOH

Osmond Kelly Ingram

Charles Hammann

Francis (Frank) Ormsbee

William Corry

Weedon Osborne (fake TC in possession of Navy Museum) - headstone has image of Tiffany Cross

William R. Huber

Carlton B. Hutchins

Patrick McGunigal

 

Also still need copy of evidence of Tiffany Cross for:

Alexander Lyle

Matej Kocak

Ernest Janson (aka Charles Hoffman)

[emccomas]

OK, a bit more info on Patrick McGunigal. Date of action is Sep 17, 1917. Date of award is Nov 7, 1917 by General Order 341 of 1917. Tiffany Cross was not available until 1919. McGunigal's headstone also has image of 5 point star MOH. Very likely that McGunigal received the 5 point star version of the MOH.

[Mick536]

Upward and onward -

 

Ora Graves - non-combat award 1917

Francis (Frank) Ormsbee - non-combat award 1918

William Corry - non-combat award 1920

William R. Huber - non-combat award 1928

Carlton B. Hutchins - non-combat award 1938

Patrick McGunigal - non-combat award 1917

 

Osmond Kelly Ingram - combat, posthumous

Charles Hammann - combat award

Weedon Osborne - combat award

Alexander Lyle - combat award

Matej Kocak - combat award

Ernest Janson (aka Charles Hoffman) - combat award

 

Presuming that the Navy only broke its rules twice (Byrd and Bennett), Graves, Ormsbee, Corry, Huber, Hutchins and McGunigal are not strong candidates.

 

Mick

[emccomas]

Upward and onward -

 

Ora Graves - non-combat award 1917

Francis (Frank) Ormsbee - non-combat award 1918

William Corry - non-combat award 1920

William R. Huber - non-combat award 1928

Carlton B. Hutchins - non-combat award 1938

Patrick McGunigal - non-combat award 1917

 

Osmond Kelly Ingram - combat, posthumous

Charles Hammann - combat award

Weedon Osborne - combat award

Alexander Lyle - combat award

Matej Kocak - combat award

Ernest Janson (aka Charles Hoffman) - combat award

 

Presuming that the Navy only broke its rules twice (Byrd and Bennett), Graves, Ormsbee, Corry, Huber, Hutchins and McGunigal are not strong candidates.

 

Mick

 

Agreed. Lyle, Kocak, and Janson Tiffany Cross medals have been observed in the past (photos, on display, etc), so we are pretty certain about those being Tiffany Cross recipients. I just don't have a copy of the actual evidence.

 

Osborne headstone has image of TC on it, and Navy has a fake TC engraved with his name (TC is cast, and engraving style is completely wrong).

 

Hammann headstone has a 5 point star emblem on it. The award of the MOH to Hammann MAY have taken place in 1918 (date of action is 8/21/1918). Hammann died on 6/14/1919. If award was made in 1918, then a star MOH would have been presented.

 

Stll checking.

 

Good info, keep it coming.

[Mick536]

New Candidate: Donald L. Truesdale (sometimes Truesdell) USMC - combat - 1932. Same time as Schlit.

 

Mick

[emccomas]

_{OK, tell me what medals this USMC guy is wearing.}

[Mick536]

Hi Ed -

 

This page: https://www.mcu.usmc.mil/historydivision/pages/Whos_Who/Truesdell_DL.aspx

 

Led me to this page: http://www.medals.org.uk/nicaragua/nicaragua004.htm

 

The one you question is the Nicaragua Cross of Valor. ;-) Bummer.

 

Mick

[Mick536]

And reading the citation, Truesdell was not involved in combat at the moment.

 

Mick

[emccomas]

As a side note, Truesdell's MOH was one of the 7 that was stolen from the CMOHS on the USS Yorktown. There is another thread on the Forum (Medal of Honor Engraving) that has a picture of a replacement (duplicate) MOH for Turesdell. This is the one that was stolen in 2004.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/38618-medal-of-honor-engraving/page__view__findpost__p__404245__hl__truesdell

[Mark Costa]

Truedale was presented with a Star. I have a photo of the actual presentation. There is no known instance of a Star recipient receiving a TC later. Whereas we know of at least three instances where TC recipients requested and were given Stars after the TC was made absolete in 1942. All indications are that only 3 TC were presented to NON-WWI MOH recipients -- Byrd Bennett and Schilt. All others were for WWI actions. I believe we can eliminate ALL further non-WWI recipients. The total of 28 actually came from the fact that early research on the WWI MOH stated that ALL WWI men received TC's -- hence the number 28 which were the USN men and the 8 USMC men. It was thought in the 1950's that all 28 WWI recipients got a TC when we know that just was not so. Old legends die hard.

 

MCGunigal was known to received only a star. And several books make mention of the fact that he did NOTreceive a TC. Hamman is most assuredly have received a TC but still looking for that elusive photo of the medal.

 

Mark Costa

[emccomas]

Truedale was presented with a Star. I have a photo of the actual presentation. There is no known instance of a Star recipient receiving a TC later. Whereas we know of at least three instances where TC recipients requested and were given Stars after the TC was made absolete in 1942. All indications are that only 3 TC were presented to NON-WWI MOH recipients -- Byrd Bennett and Schilt. All others were for WWI actions. I believe we can eliminate ALL further non-WWI recipients. The total of 28 actually came from the fact that early research on the WWI MOH stated that ALL WWI men received TC's -- hence the number 28 which were the USN men and the 8 USMC men. It was thought in the 1950's that all 28 WWI recipients got a TC when we know that just was not so. Old legends die hard.

 

MCGunigal was known to received only a star. And several books make mention of the fact that he did NOTreceive a TC. Hamman is most assuredly have received a TC but still looking for that elusive photo of the medal.

 

Mark Costa

 

Hey Mark;

 

Welcome back. Progress continues to be made, slowly but surely. We are down to looking for proof for the last few.

[emccomas]

THe one that is really puzzling me is Osmond Kelly Ingram. He is from my neck of the woods (Alabama) but I can't seem to find anything about what happened to his MOH.

[Mark Costa]

THe one that is really puzzling me is Osmond Kelly Ingram. He is from my neck of the woods (Alabama) but I can't seem to find anything about what happened to his MOH.

 

 

Ingram almost assuredly was presented with a TC. The reasoning behind my deduction is that his medal was presented at the same ceremony with other Combat Action TC's. Every other man presented with combat MOH's that day, received a TC. It just makes sense that he too received a TC as his actions were also for combat. BUT that is just a deduction no matter how much sense it makes. Who would have thought that Byrd and Bennett would have been presented with TC's ?? No one to this day knows why they received them. My guess is that the TC's were only ones available to Coolidge for the presentation and no one knew any better to acquire the star version instead.

 

Mark Costa

[emccomas]

Ingram almost assuredly was presented with a TC. The reasoning behind my deduction is that his medal was presented at the same ceremony with other Combat Action TC's. Every other man presented with combat MOH's that day, received a TC. It just makes sense that he too received a TC as his actions were also for combat. BUT that is just a deduction no matter how much sense it makes. Who would have thought that Byrd and Bennett would have been presented with TC's ?? No one to this day knows why they received them. My guess is that the TC's were only ones available to Coolidge for the presentation and no one knew any better to acquire the star version instead.

 

Mark Costa

 

I concur with your analysis, but some sort of proof would be nice. I haven't given up. I am trying to track down family members now.

[Mick536]

Revisiting John Otto Siegal --

 

We have the picture of his engraved TC, so he got it. We also have his citation:

 

For extraordinary heroism while serving on board the Mohawk in performing a rescue mission aboard the schooner Hjeltenaes which was in flames on 1 November 1918. Going aboard the blazing vessel, Siegel rescued 2 men from the crew's quarters and went back the third time. Immediately after he had entered the crew's quarters, a steam pipe over the door bursted, making it impossible for him to escape. Siegel was overcome with smoke and fell to the deck, being finally rescued by some of the crew of the Mohawk who carried him out and rendered first aid.

 

Not combat action, unless there is more to the story. So, are there more recipients than Bennett, Byrd and Siegal out there who got the TC, yet not combat related?

[firefighter]

After thinking about it and looking at the rack again and again.Shouldn't the GC be after the Navy Cross? Maybe the GC was originally the French Legion de Honneur and the medal was missing and somebody threw on the GC? Foreign medals are mounted last. Just a thought.

[emccomas]

After thinking about it and looking at the rack again and again.Shouldn't the GC be after the Navy Cross? Maybe the GC was originally the French Legion de Honneur and the medal was missing and somebody threw on the GC? Foreign medals are mounted last. Just a thought.

 

I am not sure what you are commenting on. Can you clarify.

[emccomas]

Revisiting John Otto Siegal --

 

We have the picture of his engraved TC, so he got it. We also have his citation:

 

For extraordinary heroism while serving on board the Mohawk in performing a rescue mission aboard the schooner Hjeltenaes which was in flames on 1 November 1918. Going aboard the blazing vessel, Siegel rescued 2 men from the crew's quarters and went back the third time. Immediately after he had entered the crew's quarters, a steam pipe over the door bursted, making it impossible for him to escape. Siegel was overcome with smoke and fell to the deck, being finally rescued by some of the crew of the Mohawk who carried him out and rendered first aid.

 

Not combat action, unless there is more to the story. So, are there more recipients than Bennett, Byrd and Siegal out there who got the TC, yet not combat related?

 

That appears to be correct. The action apparently occurred in Norfolk, VA area.

[firefighter]

I think the order of the medals are wrong.It should be, MOH, NC, GCM, Cuban Pac, WW1 Vic, Then possibly a French Legion of Honor.So I am thinking that maybe the last medal was originally the French Legion of Honor and for some reason somebody replaced it with the Navy GC planchet? Just a wild guess.If so the recipient would have been an officer. Does that make sense???

[emccomas]

I think the order of the medals are wrong.It should be, MOH, NC, GCM, Cuban Pac, WW1 Vic, Then possibly a French Legion of Honor.So I am thinking that maybe the last medal was originally the French Legion of Honor and for some reason somebody replaced it with the Navy GC planchet? Just a wild guess.If so the recipient would have been an officer. Does that make sense???

 

 

If you are referring to the Truesdale photo in post #306, the medals are as follows:

 

Naval Medal of Honor (around neck)

 

Top row:

USMC Expeditionary Medal (I think)

2nd Nicaragua Campaign Medal

USMC Good Conduct Medal

 

Bottom Row:

Nicaragua Cross of Valor

[Mick536]

That appears to be correct. The action apparently occurred in Norfolk, VA area.

Makes false then the assumption that only Bennett and Byrd are the outliers. I'd think that the "possibles" must again include those in the right date range for whom definitive observation still is lacking. Count on the Navy to not follow its rules . The "probables" remain those with combat citations.

 

Mick

[emccomas]

Part of this discussion centers on the date of the action, and the date of the award. Siegel's action was 1 Nov 1918; WWI was still "officially" going on (until 11/11/1918 - 10 days later). Probably more important is the date of the award. I am not sure what the date of Siegel's award was, but if clearly fell within the dates that the TC was available.

 

I have not eliminated anyone from consideration until I have some definitive information. Any Navy or Marine personnel that were awarded the MOH between 1919 and 1942 are "possibles". I am not focusing on the "combat" vs. "non-combat" designation, since these lines were clearly ignored in some cases.

[emccomas]

If the date of award was before the Tiffany Cross was available, then the MOH type by default has to be the star version, correct?

 

Patrick McGunigal was awarded MOH on 11/7/1917 (GO 341, 1917) so this award had to be a star version.

Ora Graves was awarded MOH in 1918 (GO 366, 1918) so this award had to be a star version. There is a 1957 picture of Graves wearing the star MOH.

Jesse Covington was awarded MOH in 1918 (GO 403, 1918), so this award had to be a star version. There is a picture of Covington wearing the star MOH.

John MacKenzie was awarded MOH in 1918 (GO 391, 1918), so this award had to be a star version. There is a picture of the Upton MOH showing the engraving.

Frank Upton was awarded MOH in 1918 (GO 403, 1918), so this award had to be a star version. There is a picture of Covington wearing the star MOH.

Francis Ormsbee was awarded MOH in 1918 (GO 436, 1918) so this award had to be a star version.

 

Thoughts?

[Mick536]

Patrick McGunigal - non-combat award 1917

Ora Graves - non-combat award 1917

Jesse Covington - non-combat award 1918

John MacKenzie - non-combat award 1917

Frank Upton - non-combat award 1918

Francis (Frank) Ormsbee - non-combat award 1918

 

Aligns with your conclusions. Ingram's award was posthumous, and Find a Grave says he was buried at sea. Interestingly, his Find a Grave entry has a Tiffany Cross image posted. I've emailed the poster to see why he may have made that choice.

 

...Mick

[emccomas]

11 Naval / USNC men were awarded the MOH on Nov 11,1920. They are:

 

James J. Madison - confirmed TC recipient

Alexander Lyle - confirmed TC recipient

Edouard Izac - confirmed TC recipient

Orlando Petty - confirmed TC recipient

Daniel Sullivan - confirmed TC recipient

Charles Hamman - uncorfirmed type of MOH

Ralph Talbot - confirmed TC recipient

John Balch - confirmed TC recipient

David Hayden - confirmed TC recipient

Osmond Ingram - unconfirmed type of MOH

Robert Robertson - confirmed TC recipient

 

9 of the 11 are confirmed TC recipients. It is reasonable to suspect that the other two are also TC recipients. I have a lead on the family of Osmond Ingram that may help with this. Stay tuned.