1canpara Posted September 17, 2011 Share #26 Posted September 17, 2011 if this 'dive' photo of the P-51 is from the actual incident, it would appear also that the pilot cannot be seen at all....perhaps passed out or pressed down and back against the seat out of sight from the G's..? Very sad indeed. Prayers to the family of the pilot and all that were killed and injured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-17Guy Posted September 17, 2011 Share #27 Posted September 17, 2011 At first I thought this was not an actual photo taken during the crash sequence, but as I talk to more college's in the warbird community today, I am thinking different. It appears it is an actual AP photo, as well as the one I posted above showing most of the elevator trim tab missing. I am hearing the thought is 10+ G's when the tab went, which would black out any pilot, and could have forced the tail wheel down in the process. A friend had something similar happen about fifteen years ago at Reno. He woke up at a few thousand feet and was able to recover, as the airplane did not roll over as yesterday's did. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted September 17, 2011 Share #28 Posted September 17, 2011 At first I thought this was not an actual photo taken during the crash sequence, but as I talk to more college's in the warbird community today, I am thinking different. It appears it is an actual AP photo, as well as the one I posted above showing most of the elevator trim tab missing. I am hearing the thought is 10+ G's when the tab went, which would black out any pilot, and could have forced the tail wheel down in the process. A friend had something similar happen about fifteen years ago at Reno. He woke up at a few thousand feet and was able to recover, as the airplane did not roll over as yesterday's did. John I noticed the missing tab, but I wasn't sure that it wasn't removed for racing. If the G's were that high, his seat might have broke or bottomed out, thus not being able to see him in the cockpit. -Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Baker Posted September 17, 2011 Share #29 Posted September 17, 2011 I have a problem with that diving photo. Notice the nose cone is chromed and how it reflects the horizon in the photo of the parked aircraft. Then look at the reflection in the diving photo. :think: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-17Guy Posted September 17, 2011 Share #30 Posted September 17, 2011 I noticed the missing tab, but I wasn't sure that it wasn't removed for racing. If the G's were that high, his seat might have broke or bottomed out, thus not being able to see him in the cockpit. -Ski That seat is pretty tough, but anything is possible. More likey he is pinned into a corner of the cockpit, like Bob Hannah was when it happened to him. Here is a link to the story, I witnessed it. http://www.warbird.com/voodoo.html As for the trim tab- John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1944 Posted September 17, 2011 Share #31 Posted September 17, 2011 Very Sad News indeed from the photos of it crashing it sure looks like it bursted into pieces that P-51 i heard it on the news on T.V My toughts and prayers go out to the Familys that got killed and the familys of the people watching it that got seriously hurt in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted September 17, 2011 Share #32 Posted September 17, 2011 I have a problem with that diving photo. Notice the nose cone is chromed and how it reflects the horizon in the photo of the parked aircraft. Then look at the reflection in the diving photo. :think: I think the photo is legit. The hub is a dome, so you can't really predict how light will reflect off of it. I notice the light on the undersides of the wings and the shadowing. That alone shows the aircraft in its nose-down position. -SKi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zepher11 Posted September 18, 2011 Share #33 Posted September 18, 2011 Those are some eerie photos. I see that another plane went down at another airshow today. We are going to our local airshow next Saturday, where the Air Force Thunderbirds are performing, and my wife is having second thoughts. Which I can't blame her. Also, when I saw the first photo of the dust cloud, I immediately thought it was odd that there was no explosion of the fuel in this crash? Does anyone know if they carry a limited amount of fuel for safety while racing? I know weight is an issue for racing as well. Just really curious about that. Maybe a special safety fuel tank? Thankfully, there wasn't a fuel explosion related to this crash. My wife is just now telling me that they upped the death count to 9 soles...again our prayers go out to all affected by this tragedy. Zeph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-17Guy Posted September 18, 2011 Share #34 Posted September 18, 2011 Those are some eerie photos. I see that another plane went down at another airshow today. We are going to our local airshow next Saturday, where the Air Force Thunderbirds are performing, and my wife is having second thoughts. Which I can't blame her. Also, when I saw the first photo of the dust cloud, I immediately thought it was odd that there was no explosion of the fuel in this crash? Does anyone know if they carry a limited amount of fuel for safety while racing? I know weight is an issue for racing as well. Just really curious about that. Maybe a special safety fuel tank? Thankfully, there wasn't a fuel explosion related to this crash. My wife is just now telling me that they upped the death count to 9 soles...again our prayers go out to all affected by this tragedy. Zeph In Risky Business we always only loaded needed fuel for the race, plus a reserve. This was done to keep the weight down in the quest for speed. Fuel tanks are usually the bladder type, but each team configure's the plane differently. We had two fuel tanks in the left wing, the original 92 gallon main tank and a 60 gallon gun-bay tank, which fed via transfer pump to the main tank. The gun-bay tank usually had about 25 gallons and the main was full. In the right wing the main fuel tank was converted to hold water that was sprayed on the radiator and oil cooler, and was full. In the right gun-bay tank was about 20 gallons of ADI that went to the engine to keep the induction temp down. I do not know Jimmy's airplane was configured, but I hope that helps. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zepher11 Posted September 18, 2011 Share #35 Posted September 18, 2011 I do not know Jimmy's airplane was configured, but I hope that helps. John Thank you. It was just a thought that entered my mind, and I became curious about the fuel loads on the planes that race in Reno. Zeph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhc1stidf Posted September 18, 2011 Share #36 Posted September 18, 2011 Just got back from Reno. Went to the air races on Thursday. Hung out with my friend had dinner and went to bed early. Friday, we went to Boom town (a gambling resort) west of Reno met up with some friends and went to Stead Airport. We walked around all day drinking and talking to old friends. I have been going to the Reno Air Races since the many years. We awaited the Gold Unlimited Race. The most exciting race of the day. We were in the Pit Section where all the race planes are. The race was going fine until the third lap. I saw Galloping Ghost flutter and pitch up really fast. He went straight up , and I thought a normal Mayday. When a race plane has troubles the pilot will grab all of the altitude he can. This way he is able to pick out an emergency runway and dead stick the plane if he must. But the normal mayday climb was vertical and not as I had seen in the past. He was closer to the the Pit area than most planes usually are. I new something was terribly wrong. I felt totally helpless. The plane went up and looped over and straight in. The impact was horrific. From our view we thought the plane had hit the grand stands. Total shock! The emergency response was fantastic. There were ambulances and emergency personnel hurrying to the seen. One of the helicopters that was on static display, fueled, fired up and air lifted people to the hospital. Thank GOD it did not hit the grandstand, or worse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Posted September 18, 2011 Share #37 Posted September 18, 2011 Very sad, but... during airshows vast majority of accidents is caused by 60+/70+ pilots. What is this statement based on?It seems most accidents I have heard of are more modern aircraft flown by military pilots. Hi Jim, It is based on my personal observation and experience -- on more than 30 years long observation of air accidents and on my experience as an aerospace publicist who has always specialized himself in air accidents among others. I know the airshows from the other side of barricade unavailable completely for the spectators. I know them from backstage. I was a pilot, I like aviation but I would liquidate the airshows because aviation must be a pleasure and a very positive factor of national economy and armed forces, never tragic drama for spectators and their families -- these victims of air events. Last years a hundred percent of fatal air accidents during airshows in Poland was caused by 60+ pilots. I mean both Polish and international pilots. All of them were national or international champions in aerobatics, or senior air force officers, or Captains of the airliners. Take a look at B-52H crash on June 24th, 1994. Take a look at F/A-18 crash on April 24th, 1988. Take a look at all former USSR countries-operated MiG-29/Su-27 crashes. All of them are caused by LtCols and Cols. Why LtCols and Cols mainly crash their aircraft? The Captains and Majors also are display pilots with their permissions to perform aerobatics during airshows but main group of the perpetrators of air accidents are older LtCols and Cols although there are exceptions to the rule of course. I once saw young military helicopter pilot who wanted to be better than helicopters appearing earlier during airshow and he took his Lynx to do, at the beginning, extreme NOE flight. And he did it -- below the ground line. He crashed himself and five spectators were wounded. Many years ago I stopped going to air shows. It is enough for me what I could see from their backstage. One example only of 1991 when huge airshow took place for almost half a million people. The Desert Storm veterans (of three Allied countries) as well as the Soviets were to be main guests with their combat aircraft. Whole night before airshow they drank. At dawn they were barely conscious. One of Colonels-display pilots was so drunk that he fell into the pool. Two other display pilots barely saved him from drowning. A few hours later that Colonel gave personal air display against all imaginable flight safety standards and of course against the law. The air display far beyond permissible limits of his fighter and far beyond safety zones of display. Regards Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlaterDoc Posted September 18, 2011 Share #38 Posted September 18, 2011 It never ceases to amaze me how when something tragic happens a plethora of speculations and opinions suddenly forget even recent history! Just a short while ago when a vintage WW2 bomber made an emergency landing due to a "mechanical" problem, the pilot was lauded for the heroic landing of the craft! I believe he was a "very experienced" pilot! Perhaps some have also forgotten the "experienced" pilot that put an airliner into the Hudson River and saved every single passenger! Let's not overlook or disregard the minutia like Mr. Leeward was all checked out physically and medically by the FAA! He was probably responsible for fewer injuries and deaths! Airframes are machines! Machines fail! It does not matter whether they are "vintage WW2" craft or brand new modern aircraft! There are accidents! How many modern day aircraft have we lost to mechanical failure? Significantly more than the recent air show loses. If I were to be a passenger in an aircraft and I were given the choice of who would pilot the craft, I would certainly choose a "Sully" Sulenberger or a Jimmy Leeward! The more urgent issue here is the handling of spectators at spectator sports! Baseball fans are struck by errant baseballs. Racing spectators were recently injured and killed when a race care went out of control. Spectators on land were inured when a race boat came out of the water! Now, we have the tragedy in NV. Over the years it seems it has been a priority to get the enthusiasts closer to the action. After viewing the video, I was amazed to see how many people were right there on the edge of the tarmac! Hopefully, that will be one of the lessons here! Greg, the air shows you speak of were certainly not held to the standards that exist here in the states. Apples and oranges are fruits! But, we do not compare them in a number of instances! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobrahistorian Posted September 18, 2011 Share #39 Posted September 18, 2011 I think that it is apparent that age had nothing to do with this accident. This was a mechanical failure pure and simple. Gregory, I don't know about the Polish Air Force, but Lieutenant Colonels and Colonels on flight status here in the US are not 60+. Mandatory retirement is 60 in the US military, and most who get to that point stop flying far earlier than that. Then there's the old adage that there "are old pilots and bold pilots but no old, bold pilots". Most who have been flying for that long are very good at what they do and know the limitations of both their airplanes and themselves. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted September 18, 2011 Share #40 Posted September 18, 2011 The more urgent issue here is the handling of spectators at spectator sports! Baseball fans are struck by errant baseballs. Racing spectators were recently injured and killed when a race care went out of control. Spectators on land were inured when a race boat came out of the water! Now, we have the tragedy in NV. Over the years it seems it has been a priority to get the enthusiasts closer to the action. After viewing the video, I was amazed to see how many people were right there on the edge of the tarmac! Hopefully, that will be one of the lessons here! I think the stands were fine where they were at. The Leeward's aircraft did not follow the flow of movement and could have crashed anywhere, no matter where the people were at. This is the great variable of air racing and airshows compared to almost any other racing. Cars can be kept at bay with barriers, but planes can go anywhere. Check 9/11. I attended the first airshow that the Frecci TriColori flew after their Ramstein mishap. They flew the same heart formation that was featured at the time of the accident, but they did not have the "piercing arrow" that was once aimed at the crowd. By the way, they are simply the best aerobatic team hands down anywhere IMHO. So lessons were indeed learned from the accident, the Russians not included, of course. -Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted September 18, 2011 Share #41 Posted September 18, 2011 When The Red Arrows (definitely THE best areobatic display team) had their tragic accident last month, the pilot is credited with steering his plane away from a built up area before the fatal impact, proving that evasive action can be taken at speed if the pilot has the wherewithal and if his machine is controllable. If neither apply then the end result spells disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-17Guy Posted September 18, 2011 Share #42 Posted September 18, 2011 It never ceases to amaze me how when something tragic happens a plethora of speculations and opinions suddenly forget even recent history!Just a short while ago when a vintage WW2 bomber made an emergency landing due to a "mechanical" problem, the pilot was lauded for the heroic landing of the craft! I believe he was a "very experienced" pilot! Perhaps some have also forgotten the "experienced" pilot that put an airliner into the Hudson River and saved every single passenger! Let's not overlook or disregard the minutia like Mr. Leeward was all checked out physically and medically by the FAA! He was probably responsible for fewer injuries and deaths! Airframes are machines! Machines fail! It does not matter whether they are "vintage WW2" craft or brand new modern aircraft! There are accidents! How many modern day aircraft have we lost to mechanical failure? Significantly more than the recent air show loses. If I were to be a passenger in an aircraft and I were given the choice of who would pilot the craft, I would certainly choose a "Sully" Sulenberger or a Jimmy Leeward! The more urgent issue here is the handling of spectators at spectator sports! Baseball fans are struck by errant baseballs. Racing spectators were recently injured and killed when a race care went out of control. Spectators on land were inured when a race boat came out of the water! Now, we have the tragedy in NV. Over the years it seems it has been a priority to get the enthusiasts closer to the action. After viewing the video, I was amazed to see how many people were right there on the edge of the tarmac! Hopefully, that will be one of the lessons here! Greg, the air shows you speak of were certainly not held to the standards that exist here in the states. Apples and oranges are fruits! But, we do not compare them in a number of instances! Thanks for the above statement, as a former air race mechanic who knew Jimmy, current air show pilot, and a pilot for a DoD company full time. Also, I am sure John Hess, pilot of the B17 you mentioned, and one I have flown with many times, would appreciate your comments. I have flown in countless air shows, and while we have had some good parties, I have never seen anyone not fit to fly the following day. At Reno, the big bash was always on Sunday night, after the races. As for the crowd, I think the only way you can ever prevent casualties at an event is to not have them, or force people to have to watch them with a telescope. At an air show in the US, all maneuvers are done so as to not direct any energy at the crowd. We also have show line that we are not to cross, so we do not get too close to the crowd. These are generally 500-1000 feet in front and are clearly marked for us to see in the air. Each morning we attend a mandatory pilot briefing as well, to review show plans, resolve operational issues, brief formation, weather and discuss safety. The FAA also will chime in if they have any special concerns, as they audit all briefings. Bottom line is that accidents happen, and will happen till the end of time. No matter what the event. What one must ask one's self is, do you want to die falling out of your easy chair at home, or living? Jimmy knew how to live. I have lost many friends at Reno and as a life long pilot. Yet, I still regard the seventeen Reno's I was there, in the thick of it as a mechanhic, as some of the best times of my life so far. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted September 18, 2011 Share #43 Posted September 18, 2011 What one must ask one's self is, do you want to die falling out of your easy chair at home, or living?Jimmy knew how to live. I have lost many friends at Reno and as a life long pilot. Yet, I still regard the seventeen Reno's I was there, in the thick of it as a mechanhic, as some of the best times of my life so far. John Then again, you don't take 9 people with you when you die on your easy chair. The risk is shared. -Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everforward Posted September 18, 2011 Share #44 Posted September 18, 2011 FWIW I doubt if his age or health will come into play here, but Leeward must have known there were problems for it's reported that he radioed a MAYDAY before the accident....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claymore Posted September 28, 2011 Share #45 Posted September 28, 2011 This is a real tragic thing all around. We were going to go as I try not to miss the races. But the wifey and I had to go to SOCAL for the weekend on family matters. In a way I am happy we did not go. MAybe it would have been different if we had. I hope that this accident does not change the face of the races as well as airshows in general. In my way of thinking there is an accepted risk in events like these, or auto racing, and even driving your vehicle on the freeway. I hope that those who make the regulations don't protect us further. My heart goes out to the pilot's family and those of the spectators whom were lost. But I will still look forward to nest year at Reno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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