Cattaraugus 225Q

[Garandy]

Got this today for $60.00..scabbard looks original, any time line association to white spacers? Is the butt picture necessary? If so, I'll take it, 2 pins around tang, and butt is raised bumpy checkering, blade has been oiled before pic

I know it was marketed as "Commando" but was this one a WW2 pattern?

[sactroop]

Called the quartermaster's knife. Along with a version from Case. A nice example of a desirable WW2 issued knife.

:thumbsup:

[Still-A-Marine]

Here is an article on the Q knives. Bill

 

 

 

"The “Q” Knives of WW II

By Frank Trzaska 2004

 

The Cattaraugus 225Q and the Case 337Q knives have always intrigued me. Perhaps it is

some of the myths that always circulated about them that drew me in. I love the challenge

associated with a knife with a mainly oral history. Very little has been written about the

Q knives in the way of facts. We can find photos of them in just about every theatre of

World War Two being worn by front line fighters yet the myth is that the were issued to

Quartermaster personal for opening crates. Just on the surface it sounds ridiculous that a

knife would be procured for such a use when crowbars had been in inventory for just

such a task. In fact there were even specialized crate opening tools specified for that job

in Quartermaster catalogs. The myth grown up around these knives even has the pommel

as being designed to hammer the nails back into the crates apparently after the wrong box

is opened. It sounds fishy when put into this type of context yet the myth continues to

grow and to spread. Like most good urban legends some fact is always present to make

the myth palatable to the majority of people. In this article we hope to end some of those

urban legends and present the facts associated with the misunderstood and under

appreciated Q knives.

 

At the start of World War Two it is a known fact that the U.S. forces were woefully under

prepared to wage a war on this large of a scale. In fact a war this large had never been

fought before or for that fact ever since. Many new ventures would be engaged in to meet

the production demands of such a large force. Knives were but one aspect of the new

style war to be fought. It became immediately known that the U.S. forces were short of

cutlery of all types. To meet this demand it was decided to use whatever style could be

put into immediate production. The early Marine Corps Raider knives were nothing more

then Camillus hunting knives quickly popped out and sent to the newly formed group.

Along these same lines the portion of the military tasked with purchasing all types of

supplies was the Quartermaster Corps. The Army had their own Quartermaster Corps as

did the Navy, both of which cooperated but were usually tasked with much different

problems. In this specific task they were both looking for the same type of vendor to

produce an item in great need by all branches of the services. Fast production was needed

so a style of construction was chosen which would lead to little changes needed by the

producing factories. This was a simple matter in choosing a stacked leather handle that

had been in continuous production since at least the turn of the century. Other then that

simple order any six inch bladed hunting knife would do. Our good friend Carter Rila has

made a great distinction between somewhat common words that will come into play with

these knives. He distinguishes the word "type" and "pattern" for just such an occasion. A

“pattern” is a knife made to a specific design, subtle differences are known to exist but

the knife generally follows a pattern. A classic example would be a common USN Mark

2 knife. Made by Ka-Bar, Camillus, Pal and Robeson Shuredge they all look much the

same following a specific pattern. A “type” is a knife purchased for a specific general

task but not following a specific pattern. A classic example of a type is the USN Mark 1

knife. A five-inch bladed hunting knife that will fit a similar scabbard. The first fixed

blade knives procured were of the “type” designation. A six-inch bladed hunting knife

with stacked leather handle. The Pal RH36, the Robeson / U.S.A., the Case 325-6 and the

Queen City knives all fit this designation. Right on the heels of the earliest procurements

the Quartermaster Corps standardized on a design for the six-inch bladed knives and we

find ourselves switching over to a “pattern” knife, the well-known Q knives. We all know

the military likes standardization so it was only a matter of time until this happened.

 

Designed by the Quartermaster Corps, the Bill of Materials list was number B/M No. TJC7

dated 12/1/1942 the official nomenclature is "Special Hunting Knives, 6", No.225.”

The Bill of Materials for 1000 knives included 904 lbs. of High Carbon hot rolled cutlery

blade steel. Carbon content to be not less the 1.0% while not more the 1.1% (this amounts

to basic 1095) and 211 lbs. cold rolled SAE 1010 steel was called for in the manufacture

of the guards and butt plates. A later Bill of Materials was issued to Case with the knife

designated No.337, we do not know the reason for this change but suspect the change in

handle design. These procurements were handled by the Jefferson City Quartermaster

Depot, which had control over most of the cutleries in the Northeast U.S. We list the

above as absolute proof that the Q knives were Quartermaster designed and procured for

military issue. But you say we already knew that, it is part of that myth you were talking

about. Well we still have more to the story.

 

Next we move on to contracts. If the knives were officially procured by the military there

must be a trail of contracts to follow. In many cases the factories that made the knives no

longer exist and of those that do, much of the old paperwork was thrown away. They are

not in the history business; they make knives for a living. With that said we managed to

locate a file of all contracts listing purchase over $50,000 dollars. The file, known as the

Alphabetical Listing of Major War Supply Contractors was put out by the Civilian

Production Administration, Industrial Statistics Division. It covers purchases from June

1940 to September 1945 when the huge cancellation order was put into effect. Looking

up Cattaraugus we find they had seven major contracts totaling over $1,238,000.00 for

Hunting Knives. Even at the high price of $1.25 each that would mean over one million

knives were procured from 1942 through 1945 by Cattaraugus alone. Even if every

Quartermaster supply clerk, sewing machine operator, driver and baker had two knives

issued to them it would not have amounted to that total. To think these knives were only

issued to Quartermaster personal is ludicrous. Add to that total two contracts issued to

Case for a total of $295,000.00 we can say with authority that these knives were procured

for general issue to fighting men. The known contracts are as follows listing the item,

contract number, branch, amount, issue date and completion date:

 

Cattaraugus

Knives 1913QM9627 Army $76,000.00 12/1/1942 6/1/1943

Knives 1913QM10585 Army $76,000.00 1/1/1943 4/1/1943

Knives 1913QM11694 Army $340,000.00 2/1/1943 7/1/1943

Knives 28021QM3029 Army $381,000.00 10/1/1943 6/1/1944

Knives 28021QM11497 Army $110,000.00 3/1/1944 9/1/1944

Knives 28021QM16054 Army $114,000.00 8/1/1944 12/1/1944

Knives 28021QM24308 Army $141,000.00 11/1/1944 6/1/1945

 

Case

Knives 1913QM11693 Army $213,000.00 2/1/1943 6/1/1943

Knives 189XSX47599 Navy $82,000.00 12/1/1944 6/1/1945

 

It should also be noted that the Quartermaster Corps did not procure items for sale by the

P.X. system or for the Navy Ships Stores system. Private sales of these contract items

were not an issue; the War Production Board would never have approved this much steel

and labor. Let's face it, the Quartermaster Corps designed these knives for military

procurement and general issue to our fighting forces. Why they were never shown in the

Quartermaster catalogs is a mystery but it does not change the facts.

 

The first contract we find dated 12/1/1942 with the last one dated 12/1/1944 due for

completion 6/1/1945. With that information we can also state with certainty that the Q

knives were produced for the entire duration of the U.S. involvement in the war. Of all

the contracts cited above, the Navy only assigned one. The Army entered into all the

remaining contracts. It is interesting to note that of the two Case contracts the first, dated

2/1/1943 was for $213,000.00 to the Army while the second contract for $82,000.00 was

entered into by the Navy on 12/1/1944. We are going out on a limb here and speculating,

something I hate to do mind you, but it fits the bill so nice. The more common of the

Case knives found is the one marked "Case XX" while the knife marked "Case" only is

rather uncommon to encounter. Could it be the different contract numbers correlate to the

different markings? Could the "Case XX" knife be from the larger Army contract while

the uncommon “Case” only marked knife from the Navy contract? Not that it would have

been a specific request to change the marking but more of a economic savings if Case

were to use a stamping die they had in use at the time that did not have the “XX” in it.

For the small run of knives it would be safe to say that Case would not have went to the

expense of having a die made if they did not already have one available. Additional

research on the subject is needed to prove just such a fact. Speculate away folks; to me it

is only a theory, yet to be validated through further investigation.

 

As for the knives themselves they are about the most robust knives ever made for the

military. The myth about opening crates could actually have some truth to it; these knives

are capable of doing it. And the thick pommels are more then capable of driving nails

although a tent peg is much more likely to be struck by the butt. The Cattaraugus consists

of a 1095 steel blade that is 6 inches in length with the knife having an overall length of

10 3/8 inches. The Case knife shares the same blade length but comes in at 10 inches

overall. To my hand the longer Case handle is more comfortable but the Catt is adequate

to do the job. Both knives have a stacked leather washer handle but the finish is very

much different. The typical Catt knife has a smooth leather handle roughed up in the

center section with gouges to the leather for a sure grip. The cutting tool intentionally

applied the gouges; it is not a mistake. The Case knife is finished on a broaching wheel

with 18 circular grooves which produces a much more professional and eye pleasing

result. Both knives allow a good grip surface it’s just that the Case knife looks better. The

pommels of the two knives are quite different. They both have the same dimensions but

the Case knife consists of one large piece of steel while the Catt knife uses three

independent steel disks stacked on top of each other and finished off with two nails

driven through line up holes on the disks into the leather. It is a simple yet ingenious

system to secure the pommel with a minimum amount of trouble and it is extremely

strong. In fact I do not think I have ever seen a Q knife with the pommel broken off. Both

knives have the pommel faces finished off in a waffle pattern. This could have no other

reason that I am aware of other then preventing the pommel from slipping while

hammering. Now whether driving nails or tent pegs you can take your choice but there is

no doubt it was made for hammering.

 

During the background search for this article I was greatly aided by our esteemed editor

Mark Zalesky who sent me newspaper clippings from the Buffalo Evening News

Magazine. It was a short story on knives made in the area from the many cutleries doing

business in the region. Dated April 7, 1945 it is almost at the end of the war but we were

still battling at the time. In an interview with Mr. J.B.F. Champlin, President of

Cattaraugus Cutlery we find a very curious statement. On the topic of the "Commando

Knives" made there Mr. Champlin states: "Handsome gadgets, men can use them to open

boxes, drive nails, cut throats, open coconuts" and dig foxholes." So here we find the

basis for the myth, or perhaps the truth. While not specifically designed to open boxes the

knives were expected to do just such duty among other things. We also find that Mr.

Champlain’s son Jack, 21 was currently serving in Europe with the Quartermaster Corps.

Coincidence you say? Maybe. They also stated Jack carried a 225Q knife made especially

for him. Now that is a Q knife I would love to see!

 

Another contact made during the ongoing investigation was Chuck Karwan. Chuck is a

well-known gun and knife writer who had written an article on the Q knives for Knives

98 Annual. I would suggest reading it if you haven’t already. It seems Chuck has a great

appreciation for the Q knives, he lists them among his favorites. What many folks do not

know is Mr. Karwan is a Vietnam combat veteran and continued to serve for many more

years. Chuck has carried many knives in his time in the field and to rank the Q knife up

there as a favorite is a major statement. Mr. Karwan assisted me in the search and

confirmed information from his many service friends on contracting entities.

 

So that about sums it up for the history on the Q knives for now. We can dispel the myth

that they were private purchase knives, we have contracts to prove otherwise. We can say

with certainty they were for general issue, not just for Quartermaster personal by the

sheer amount of the knives made. We can state as fact these knives were made to a

specific pattern designed by the Quartermaster Corps just like an M3 was made to a

specific pattern designed by the Ordnance Corps from the bill of materials listing. And

last but not least we can point to Mr. JBF Champlin who stated for a 1945 article that the

knives could open boxes and drive nails, perhaps as the beginning of that often told tale.

 

I never could find a written specification as to "why" the left-handed sheath. The proper

placement of the bayonet on the belt in the uniform of the time was on the left rear

quadrant. The knife was designed to fit this same space hence the orientation of the

sheath.

 

All the best

Frank Trzaska"

[Garandy]

I always liked these too, and I had a Case 337 6"Q from Homer Brett, in my first collection, but I like the Catt best