Did Army Special Forces wear the infantry blue cord and disc backing?

[iamck94]

Prior to Special Forces becoming their own branch, they were part of the infantry, and as such wore the crossed rifles. However, did they wear the infantry blue cord and the infantry blue MOS disc backings? I only ask because if anyone has ever seen the album cover for "The Ballad of the Green Berets" Ssgt. Barry Sadler, isn't wearing the infantry disctinctive items, only the crossed rifles.

[craig_pickrall]

It has been a long time since I paid any attention to the album cover but if I recall Sadler is wearing the branch insignia with the US shield on it (branch unassigned).

[J_Andrews]

In the 1970s-1980s, SF enlisted men did not NORMALLY wear and BOS insignia other than "Unassigned", the same eagle emblem as worn as officer and enlisted cap badges but much smaller. This was before SF was its own branch AND when the regs stated that an individual soldier was to wear the branch of the UNIT, and NOT the individual's MOS branch.

 

However, BY ERROR or by LOCAL CUSTOM, some SF members probably did wear their individual-MOS BOS brass. IIRC MEDICs OFTEN wore the Med Dept cadeuceus, in preference to the Unassigned; have no idea if this was an Army-wide or SF-wide exception.

 

OFFICERS however did wear their individual BOS brass, and IIRC Inf people got to wear the blue rope.

 

BTW AR's CHANGED IIRC in mid-1980s and the MOS became the determining factor in which brass was worn.

[iamck94]

Wow! I had no idea that they wore Unassigned. I had always assumed that they wore infantry. Thanks!

[patches]

Prior to Special Forces becoming their own branch, they were part of the infantry, and as such wore the crossed rifles. However, did they wear the infantry blue cord and the infantry blue MOS disc backings? I only ask because if anyone has ever seen the album cover for "The Ballad of the Green Berets" Ssgt. Barry Sadler, isn't wearing the infantry disctinctive items, only the crossed rifles.

 

In those days Special forces was not assigned to any given branch,the enlistedmen where assigned to Branch Unassigned, as MR Pickrall has pointed out,this is the disc that the Green beret wears on his collar,they would not wear Infantry distinctives. Officers on the other hand would wear the insignia of the branch of the service that they where first commisioned in and would where this BOS only,again no infantry distinctives would hav been worn, even if a officer wore Infantry crossed rifles. This same wearing of the officer BOS insignia also applied to the army aviators assigned to the aviation units during this time,here there was no seperate branch for these units, not sure in regards to EMs in these aviation units, in 1980 they wore the transportation corps disc,it may have been the same from the 50s up till aviation was made in to a seperate branch

[atb]

In the 1970s-1980s, SF enlisted men did not NORMALLY wear and BOS insignia other than "Unassigned", the same eagle emblem as worn as officer and enlisted cap badges but much smaller. This was before SF was its own branch AND when the regs stated that an individual soldier was to wear the branch of the UNIT, and NOT the individual's MOS branch.

 

However, BY ERROR or by LOCAL CUSTOM, some SF members probably did wear their individual-MOS BOS brass. IIRC MEDICs OFTEN wore the Med Dept cadeuceus, in preference to the Unassigned; have no idea if this was an Army-wide or SF-wide exception.

 

OFFICERS however did wear their individual BOS brass, and IIRC Inf people got to wear the blue rope.

 

BTW AR's CHANGED IIRC in mid-1980s and the MOS became the determining factor in which brass was worn.

That changed around 1977 or 1978. Until then I wore the BOS insignia based on the type of unit to which I was assigned, not my MOS. My last assignment I wore Unassigned to Branch when I arrived in 1976 and then switched to Signal Corps to comply with my MOS.

[SKIPH]

You were not allowed to wear the blue infantry discs, or rope. You were to wear unassigned brass, and you were immediately informed of this as soon as you arrived to your training company, either from jump school or where-ever. Everyone was happy to see the "Crossed Arrows" authorized in the 80's. SKIP

[elbertson]

In the 1970s-1980s, SF enlisted men did not NORMALLY wear and BOS insignia other than "Unassigned", the same eagle emblem as worn as officer and enlisted cap badges but much smaller. This was before SF was its own branch AND when the regs stated that an individual soldier was to wear the branch of the UNIT, and NOT the individual's MOS branch.

 

However, BY ERROR or by LOCAL CUSTOM, some SF members probably did wear their individual-MOS BOS brass. IIRC MEDICs OFTEN wore the Med Dept cadeuceus, in preference to the Unassigned; have no idea if this was an Army-wide or SF-wide exception.

 

OFFICERS however did wear their individual BOS brass, and IIRC Inf people got to wear the blue rope.

 

BTW AR's CHANGED IIRC in mid-1980s and the MOS became the determining factor in which brass was worn.

Well, I was in before this change you speak of, apparently, and the whole time I was in I wore the insignia of my MOS branch, even though I was never assigned to a unit OF that branch. In fact, this is the first I ever heard of this. Must be Arlington Hall superseded that reg. for ASA, or because ASA units weren't of any one branch?

[e19]

Prior to Special Forces becoming their own branch, they were part of the infantry, and as such wore the crossed rifles. However, did they wear the infantry blue cord and the infantry blue MOS disc backings? I only ask because if anyone has ever seen the album cover for "The Ballad of the Green Berets" Ssgt. Barry Sadler, isn't wearing the infantry disctinctive items, only the crossed rifles.

 

SF was not part of the Infantry. Enlisted wore unassigned brass, and wore camo scarfs for parades etc. Infantry brass, blue discs, blue scarfs were not authorized for wear in SF. Sadler (a 91B4S SF Medic) was wearing "Unassigned" brass, 7th SFG Flash, and SF DUIs in that RCA photo, and he was also wearing the CIB. I was in the 7th SFG at the time.

 

Sadler's second RCA album SSgt Barry Sadler of The Green Berets Sings THE "A" TEAM has a photo of him wearing Greens with US Army Special Warfare Center SSI, DUIs and Flash, Unassigned brass, and CIB

[05B4S]

In the photo of Barry Sadler in the TW's and 7th Grp beret two rows of ribbons are visible below the CIB. Top row: Purple Heart; Second row left to right: Good Conduct Medal, Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal, and Air Force Longevity Service Award. Missing were the National Defense Service Medal and the Vietnam Service Medal, and unless the reg changed later the AF Longevity Service Award isn't authorized for wear on Army uniforms.

 

Correct me if memory is wrong, but I don't believe SF medics (which Barry was) were eligible for the CIB back then ('65), as they are today. They were awarded the CMB.

 

Prior to Special Forces becoming their own branch, they were part of the infantry,

 

Where did you get that from?

[BigJohn#3RD]

Guys

Back in the the 70's and until 1983 SF personnel wore their branch feeder MOS insignia i.e. a Weapons Man was a 11BS which translate to Infantryman additional skill identifier of SF Qualified in 1983 he was transitioned to a 18B. I can't believe how much time has passed. It was only in the 50s are early 60s that SF wore Branch Unassigned. But an 11BS did not wear the infantry blue background or the "infantry rope" when serving in an SF assignment/unit/billet etc.

Regards

John

[iamck94]

05B4S, I got that information somewhere, and as you can see from what BigJohn#3RD, that was true at one point in time. e19, I appreciate you creating an account just to answer my question.

[J_Andrews]

1. In VN, SF medics COULD and DID qualify for the CIB, IF they were serving as leaders of CIDG recon teams (per my recollection). IIRC this also applied to SF medics serving on SOG RTs. In these exceptional niches, their PRIMARY purpose was regarded as INFANTRY, with their medic status secondary. I knew two medics who so qualified on A-109 in late 1971; each had earlier been awarded the CFMB. With such distinction, they BOUGHT at the bar.

 

2. Branch unassigned brass (for EM) was still the norm in 1976 and maybe into 1977 (when I left SF), but changed somewhere in the 1976-1980 period. That is, the REG changed, and eventually the practice followed! It would have been unusual for an SF EM to drag out his greens more than once a year (or not even) and get ADVISED what to put on.

[05B4S]

05B4S, I got that information somewhere, and as you can see from what BigJohn#3RD, that was true at one point in time. e19, I appreciate you creating an account just to answer my question.

 

1. Even if SF 11Bs, 11Cc, and 11Fs wore Infantry brass during that period, how would that make SF part of the Infantry Branch? If the 05B4Ss wore Signal Corps brass, 12B4Ss wore Engineer brass, and the 91B4Ss wore Medical Corps brass.......did that make SF part of the Signal Corps, Engineers, and Medical Corps too???

 

2. You say you got that information "somewhere"....maybe BigJohn got it from the same place as you...does that make it true?? Do you always take an individuals word as gospel, with out knowing his background, or confirming what they say with reliable sources? Where did BigJohn#3RD get his information from, was he SF?? Even if he was in SF, individuals don't always have all their "facts" straight.

 

BTW, Never once during my time in SF did I ever hear an 11B4S referred to as an Infantryman.

[05B4S]

1. In VN, SF medics COULD and DID qualify for the CIB, IF they were serving as leaders of CIDG recon teams (per my recollection). IIRC this also applied to SF medics serving on SOG RTs. In these exceptional niches, their PRIMARY purpose was regarded as INFANTRY, with their medic status secondary. I knew two medics who so qualified on A-109 in late 1971; each had earlier been awarded the CFMB. With such distinction, they BOUGHT at the bar.

 

2. Branch unassigned brass (for EM) was still the norm in 1976 and maybe into 1977 (when I left SF), but changed somewhere in the 1976-1980 period. That is, the REG changed, and eventually the practice followed! It would have been unusual for an SF EM to drag out his greens more than once a year (or not even) and get ADVISED what to put on.

 

Thanks for the info. What was the CFMB? I'm familiar with the CMB and the EFMB but not the CFMB. As far as I know, an individual could not earn the CIB and CMB for the same war.

[elbertson]

CFMB = Combat Field Medical Badge

[05B4S]

Guys

Back in the the 70's and until 1983 SF personnel wore their branch feeder MOS insignia i.e. a Weapons Man was a 11BS which translate to Infantryman additional skill identifier of SF Qualified in 1983 he was transitioned to a 18B. I can't believe how much time has passed. It was only in the 50s are early 60s that SF wore Branch Unassigned. But an 11BS did not wear the infantry blue background or the "infantry rope" when serving in an SF assignment/unit/billet etc.

Regards

John

 

What did one's feeder MOS have to do with SF MOS?? If my feeder MOS was 11B Infantryman and I went through the SFTG Communications Course (05B2S) would I have worn Infantry brass or Signal Corps brass, or my feeder MOS was 64B would I have worn Transportation Corps brass??

 

How did the the wearing of different brass make SF part of the Infantry? If it was part of the Infantry was the 1st SF Regimental flag changed to Infantry blue? Were the company guidons changed to Infantry blue with crossed rifles?

[05B4S]

CFMB = Combat Field Medical Badge

 

 

What county/service awards the CFMB?

 

The TIOH lists no such badge in the US Army

 

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Uniforme...rmy_badges.aspx

[iamck94]

What county/service awards the CFMB?

 

The TIOH lists no such badge in the US Army

 

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Uniforme...rmy_badges.aspx

 

The US Army issues the "Combat Medical Badge". Combat Field Medic Badge is most likely a mistake based on the similiar Expert Field Medic Badge.

 

Obviously I was ignorant, but that's no reason why you need to insult me because I don't fact check every individual's statement. My step-father is retired SF (1st SFG, 18B) and my father is current SF (7th SFG 18A). I was told by one of them that SF was originially part of infantry and I would assume that an SF soldier is a credible enough background. Obviously I either misheard one of them or they were wrong. I hope you can understand that people are not correct 100% of the time and maybe you can be a little more forgiving the next time someone makes a mistake.

[TrenchfootJoe66]

An interesting thread. I have been told that because SF was to wear the "Branch Unassigned" insignia, the color for the arrowhead SSI was to be teal, as this was the color for unassigned personel. Any truth to this?? And is this why the original airborne tab was also teal in color ?

[J_Andrews]

Yes, teal blue and golden yellow were the "branch" colors for Unassigned, and that is why that color combination was used on the SF (later SF Command) SSI and its matching tab. Same for SF guidons and Group-level "regimental" flags -- until SF was made a real branch (I do not recall the date -- 1985?) and the BOS colors became rifle (as for the beret) green and silver gray. Psy Ops also uses green and silver; I have heard "Psy Ops" has been recently replaced, by "Military Information Service" -- !!??

 

SF-assigned personnel may well have worn Infantry crossed rifles, but EARLY, well before the constitution of the 1st SF Regiment in 1960-61. It took HQ DA awhile to figure out that SF was a non-branch.

[TrenchfootJoe66]

Yes, teal blue and golden yellow were the "branch" colors for Unassigned, and that is why that color combination was used on the SF (later SF Command) SSI and its matching tab. Same for SF guidons and Group-level "regimental" flags -- until SF was made a real branch (I do not recall the date -- 1985?) and the BOS colors became rifle (as for the beret) green and silver gray. Psy Ops also uses green and silver; I have heard "Psy Ops" has been recently replaced, by "Military Information Service" -- !!??

 

SF-assigned personnel may well have worn Infantry crossed rifles, but EARLY, well before the constitution of the 1st SF Regiment in 1960-61. It took HQ DA awhile to figure out that SF was a non-branch.

Thanks. I found some really early pics of 10th Grp guys in Class A's. Ike jackets etc. The photos were taken prior to the authorization of the current SSI. Probably 53 or 54 ? Ill have a look and see what sort of collar brass they are wearing. You should see the combat patches on these guys in the pics. All airborne units, everything from 101st, 82nd, 17th,11th 187th, you name it, its really impressive.

[mvmhm]

IRT combat medics wearing/earning the Combat Infantryman Badge...my friend's husband is a (posthumous) Medal of Honor recipient, and was assigned to B Troop, 2/17, 101st in Vietnam...he was also a conscientious objector - clearly only a medic and never held an Infantry MOS...he was awarded both the CMB AND CIB (she gave me copies of all his award docos, orders, etc.)...so, it wasn't unheard of for non-Infantry MOS holders to earn one. I asked the same thing when she brought in his framed MoH and other awards, and the CIB was in there.

 

Mark sends

[hawk3370]

I became SF qualified in 1965 and at that time I was a 12BS engineer but wore the unassigned brass. We did not have the diff color backgrounds on our jump wings as they do today, we wore the yellow and blue background. As stated earlier we wore the camoflauge ascot and were not allowed to wear branch colors such as the blue cord and plastic blue backing on the collar disc.

[TrenchfootJoe66]

Thanks. I found some really early pics of 10th Grp guys in Class A's. Ike jackets etc. The photos were taken prior to the authorization of the current SSI. Probably 53 or 54 ? Ill have a look and see what sort of collar brass they are wearing. You should see the combat patches on these guys in the pics. All airborne units, everything from 101st, 82nd, 17th,11th 187th, you name it, its really impressive.

Cant make out the collar dics. I did post a couple of pics in the Ephemera and Photos area though. Well worth seeing.