Jump to content

M117 Booby Trap Simulator


Spathologist

Recommended Posts

VAWARMEMORIAL

I have known Bill for sometime now, he does his homework, if he says something is OK then it more than likely is.......

Link to post
Share on other sites

I received a response from ATF this afternoon. Apparently an explosives license is required to possess a M117.

 

I am writing in response to your email inquiry regarding US military M-117 Booby Trap Simulators, their classification (under US DOT standards) and the matter of civilian possession of these devices.

 

The US M-117 Booby Trap Simulator is DOT classified as hazard class 1.3G. (This is the same category used for professional display fireworks.) Under US law storage, sale and possession require a license. Details on ATF Explosives Licenses and the Safe Explosives Act (SEA) can be found on the Internet.

 

I hope this is responsive to your inquiry. If you require additional information please contact me.

 

Sincerely,

 

 

Jim Geibel

ATF Explosives Technology Branch

Link to post
Share on other sites
I received a response from ATF this afternoon. Apparently an explosives license is required to possess a M117.

 

Honestly, I'm a bit surprised you were able to get an answer back so quickly. Regardless, this letter still does not say possession is unlawful, nor does it fully answer the question if poszsession an M117 simulator is unlawful even without a license. I'm not surprised about the classification of DOT1.3G. DOT HazMat/explosives classifications run from a high rating of 1.1 ("mass explosion") to a low rating of 1.6 ("explosive article, extremely insensitive.")

 

For the record, small arms ammunition falls into category 1.4 ("Moderate fire, no blast or fragment") and black powder falls into DOT Hazmat category 1.1D ..."mass explosion"...the highest category. While black powder is in the same category as nitroglycerin (also DOT HazMat 1.1D), certainly no one here will argue that possession of small amouts of blackpowder are unlawful, or even that possession of small amounts of black powder require a license. (Personally, I have a little over two pounds of Goex brand black powder in my own home for my two black powder rfiles and my one black powder revolver.) I refer again to my previous comment regarding the .45-70 cartridge, and how it has a larger quantity of a higher grade explosive than an M117 simulator. Assuming your transcription of the letter is complete and accurate, it still doesn't address the question of legality since it does not mention any lawful minimum/maximum amount of unlicensed possession.

 

I still do not believe that posession of a single M117 boobytrap simulator without a license is unlawful.

 

For what it's worth, to answer your questions directed specifally at me, yes, I was an

MSA certified/licensed blaster in both VA and WVA up until about three years ago. I currently teach both history and Constitutional law. I do, however, apprecaite and thank you for your self-imposed desire to save anyone from themselves.

 

With that in mind, I'd like to see the actual letter...how about posting a scan of it for us all to see?

Link to post
Share on other sites
I still do not believe that posession of a single M117 boobytrap simulator without a license is unlawful.

 

Believe what you like, but there you have it from an ATF agent that he would be asking for your license if he saw you with one of the devices. That's enough, for me, not to push the matter since I do not possess such a license. The ATF Q&A on the Safe Explosives Act is here:

 

http://www.atf.treas.gov/explarson/safexpa...s/generalqa.pdf

 

It states quite plainly that a user's permit or license is now required for possession of explosives, though you may have some wiggle room if you can prove you acquired the explosives before the effective date of the Act. But I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on the internet.

 

With that in mind, I'd like to see the actual letter...how about posting a scan of it for us all to see?

 

I received an email response to an email inquiry, and I posted the entire text of the message minus the headers with irrelevant traffic info and Agent Geibel's contact info in his signature.

 

Though I can provide that if you'd like to argue with him personally.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 13 years later...
On 11/10/2007 at 4:42 PM, Spathologist said:

 

Here's what I found quick; I forgot the code number but the limit of 50 mg of pyrotechinic was put in place before the 1976 bicentennial. I looked it up after getting into a tiny bit of trouble for firing off M80s in Alabama.

 

http://www.fireworksland.com/html/m80.html


They are not illegal to possess, ( per Federal CFRs, commie state laws may differ) simulators are illegal to import or manufacture for sale. Much like .30 cal AP, .30 cal as in 30.06 AP M2 have no restrictions. .30 cal AP in .308 is legal to own, but illegal to import, or manufacture for sale. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites


They are not illegal to possess, ( per Federal CFRs, commie state laws may differ) simulators are illegal to import or manufacture for sale. Much like .30 cal AP, .30 cal as in 30.06 AP M2 have no restrictions. .30 cal AP in .308 is legal toown, but illegal to import, or manufacture for sale.

Link to post
Share on other sites
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.