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EGA's for 1890's USMC officer's shoulder knots


Bob Hudson
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Today I bought the ribbons, medals, etc. of a Marine officer who, among other things enlisted in 1934, was commissioned in WWII, served as an intelligence officer with a Marine aviation squadron on Espiritu Santo, was in China 1946, earned a Bronze Star with combat V, possibly a Purple Heart and eventually retired as a Lt. Col. He died in 1983 and his widow at some point passed along several boxes of old family things to a friend (they had no children) and these boxes have been in storage or stacked in the back of closets for about 20 years. Sadly, the person who had them not too long ago gave away the Bronze Star (but I got the box at least :) ).

 

Anyway I will show the whole grouping in another thread but I wanted first to show the EGA's I got with it.

 

This first pair seems to be pre-1900 officer's collar insignia and I will post some larger photos of these in the thread at http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...showtopic=10086 - notice how the anchors point in opposite directions but the eagles don't:

 

ega1900.jpg

ega1900back.jpg

 

Most of these below are marked H&H and/or HH/Imperial and a couple just say "STERLING" - I assume these are all WWII vintage or later.

 

egapair.jpg

egaset.jpg

egagroup.jpg

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Here's an enlarged version of the pair shown above with the wire prongs. It now appears as though this pair is for the 1890's Officer Shoulder Knots (1892 EPAULETTE ORNAMENT). Unless we learn something to the contrary, we'll post these in the EGA reference section later this week.

 

ega1900big.jpg

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Great Find! Great Pics!...They certainly appear to be 1890's type insignia; type as worn on the patrol jacket or on the officer epaulettes. Wonder how he ended up with them? Probably found them in his his travels and took a fancy to them. Thanks for posting. Looking forward to seeing more of the collection.....Semper Fi.....Bobgee

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Until November 2007, this pair had been packed away in storage boxes for perhaps 30 or 40 years, mixed in with 15 others EGA's from a Marine officer's career. He enlisted in 1934 so these were not something he would have worn although I am told that this style was actually were worn into the 1920's. They are solid silver. The eagle was made separately and notice that the eagles point the same direction. One piece is missing one of its three wire prongs. To give an idea of the rarity or scarcity of a pair like this (or any other officers EGA's from the 1890's): from 1891 to 1903 the Marines had less than 300 officers at any one time. I believe this type of EGA on shoulder knots was officially used through 1904.

 

ega1900.jpg

ega1900back.jpg

ega1900big.jpg

ega1900backbig.jpg

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teufelhunde.ret

These are a very interesting pair. The do have all the attributes of those prescribed for use with epaulette, less one feature, the fouled anchor. I wonder were these for staff Officers, since their prescribed wear was a shoulder knot? These were to be a size between the cap and collar emblem.

 

With the present of the "tag' of silver to fasten the eagle and globe these and the type of construction shown, this type of emblem was first described in 1877 when collar emblems were prescribed for use on the evening dress and mounted on blue cloth. When that emblem changed is likely not known.

 

There is a distinct possibility these were used on evening dress prior to 1892, or at that time. Since Officer collar emblems did not see the anchor rope until '62, I'm inclined to believe, this was their intended use. I'm humbled, these are truly pristine and a fine resource for the reference section and hope we'll find out definitively their use.

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teufelhunde.ret

These are a very interesting pair. The do have all the attributes of those prescribed for use with epaulette, less one feature, the fouled anchor. I wonder were these for staff Officers, since their prescribed wear was a shoulder knot? These were to be a size between the cap and collar emblem.

 

With the present of the "tag' of silver to fasten the eagle and globe these and the type of construction shown, this type of emblem was first described in 1877 when collar emblems were prescribed for use on the evening dress and mounted on blue cloth. When that emblem changed is likely not known.

 

There is a distinct possibility these were used on evening dress prior to 1892, or at that time. Since Officer collar emblems did not see the anchor rope until '62, I'm inclined to believe, this was their intended use. I'm humbled, these are truly pristine and a fine resource for the reference section and hope we'll find out definitively their use.

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These are a very interesting pair. The do have all the attributes of those prescribed for use with epaulette, less one feature, the fouled anchor. I wonder were these for staff Officers, since their prescribed wear was a shoulder knot? These were to be a size between the cap and collar emblem.

 

With the present of the "tag' of silver to fasten the eagle and globe these and the type of construction shown, this type of emblem was first described in 1877 when collar emblems were prescribed for use on the evening dress and mounted on blue cloth. When that emblem changed is likely not known.

 

There is a distinct possibility these were used on evening dress prior to 1892, or at that time. Since Officer collar emblems did not see the anchor rope until '62, I'm inclined to believe, this was their intended use. I'm humbled, these are truly pristine and a fine resource for the reference section and hope we'll find out definitively their use.

 

I was negotiating with the seller for the last week and they are the kind of person who shows up 45 minutes late for appointments, says they will call this afternoon but instead calls two days later.... I'd thought I'd never close the deal!

 

I have added these to the reference section: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...p?showforum=400 . I am confused about whether "shoulder knot" and epaulette are the same thing in reference to these? I've seen the terms used somewhat interchangeably in regards to the 1890's officers uniforms.

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teufelhunde.ret

Bob, some weeks ago we posted a set of the shoulder knots, there was some discussion about the use & adoption of an Army version worn by the Marine Officers and Band: here is the thread, look at post #12 http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...l=shoulder+knot

 

Perhaps someone has a photo w/ the period original knot EGA's... for whatever reasons, they were apparently not of the fouled variety as seen on the Epaulette or as previously said... perhaps these were collar emblem of 1892 or earlier think.gif s/f Darrell

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Bob, some weeks ago we posted a set of the shoulder knots, there was some discussion about the use & adoption of an Army version worn by the Marine Officers and Band: here is the thread, look at post #12 http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...l=shoulder+knot

 

Perhaps someone has a photo w/ the period original knot EGA's... for whatever reasons, they were apparently not of the fouled variety as seen on the Epaulette or as previously said... perhaps these were collar emblem of 1892 or earlier think.gif s/f Darrell

 

Major Mike (usmcaviator) is going to send some photos of the shoulder cords he thinks these may have been used on - and is brother Capt Brian (leatherneck72) says they may have also been used as collar emblems (these are bigger than collar emblems).

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These pics were taken from the WAF a while back, someone had missed these at auction but had snapped some camera phone images of them as they sat in the box. The eagles are not quite the same (probably different maker), but definately of the same era. Note the attached anchor flukes and unfouled anchors.

 

Mike

post-1315-1193934473.jpg

post-1315-1193934671.jpg

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These pics were taken from the WAF a while back, someone had missed these at auction but had snapped some camera phone images of them as they sat in the box. The eagles are not quite the same (probably different maker), but definately of the same era. Note the attached anchor flukes and unfouled anchors.

 

Thanks Mike. I played with those images in Photoshop to try to make them a little easier on the eyes and I superimposed one of the above pair on one of of the epaulettes:

 

1890egaep2.jpg

 

1890egaeps1.jpg

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  • 2 months later...
teufelhunde.ret

Fellow forum members:

 

You are in the "EGA reference section". This area is were posts from the EGA "discussion section" are moved for permanent retention and education about the history of the Eagle, Globe and Anchor. As time moves forward there maybe additional information the EGA Moderators wish to add or will add to this specific post. We ask for your input as well.

 

We encourage further comments about this post and its content. In order to do so, you will need to start a new post in the "EGA discussion area" which is listed in the main page under insignia. And as needed we will be pleased to move any new and or valued information that is derived from your post (and subsequent comments) into this reference area as its own standing post.

 

Please be advised; posting and or editing is restricted on this post to moderator's and forum staff

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