101st AB BS PH Grouping KIA 6 June 1944 Normandy $6600

[KASTAUFFER]

I looked at the documents on my " shiney new high resolution screen" and I can make out the date on the Purple Heart certificate. It is January 31st 1947 so we know its a late issue. Its not unusual to see plain ( non-script ) hand engraving from this time period. A PH in my collection issued Sept 1948 is script engraved.

 

I cant say with 100% certainty whose medal is real, whose medal is fake, if they are both real, or are both fake.

 

Generally he with the most original paperwork wins in the eyes of most collectors, but I know Vic has had his medal for a LONG time.

 

As far as the price is concerned, the fact it went for $7000+ does not surprise me, but there are other groups I would rather spend $7000 on. If the group had been issued in 1944, I would have felt better about the $7000. It is what it is, but if it's a re-issue its not worth the same as a 1st issue in my eyes.

 

I know of a USN Torpedo Squadron 8 KIA DFC/PHGCM trio for Midway that sold for the same amount a few years ago. I'd take that one instead

 

Kurt

[Jack's Son]

.....I know of a USN Torpedo Squadron 8 KIA DFC/PHGCM trio for Midway that sold for the same amount a few years ago. I'd take that one instead

Kurt

.........So would We!!

 

Thanks,Kurt!!

[vicjoy1945]

Hey Guys !!

 

I agree with Kurt's assessment here. I firmly believe the grouping listed in the Neate auction is a re-issue to probably a family member. This is not an unprecedented event as evidenced by the D-Day pair of PHs I posted right here on this thread. As Kurt mentions, I too have seen this numerous times.

 

In addition, I firmly believe that the Neate Hill grouping is from the same source where the ebay PH originated. My only concern with the Neate grouping is that the PH pictured in the auction lot is NOT the same as the one that was pictured on ebay. Having corresponding with the original seller, I do NOT think that person had the knowledge or ability to "fake" the ebay PH or to add yet another "fake" PH to the grouping. The original seller had no clue to what he had listed on ebay. Also, he was so disgusted by the amount of emails he received stating that the PH was fake. It was only then that he revealed to me that he had the Truman document and other items. But he didn't trust anyone by that point and stopped responding to my inquires. I believe the original buyer on ebay reneged on purchasing the PH because of all the negative comments as well.

 

So...where did this "other" PH in the Neate grouping come from !?! Was it part of the original lot !?! Was it added later !?! I do not know...that is my only concern. Personally, the PH looks "good" to me but I have lingering questions.

 

Coincidently, I have the Hill IDPF so I'll pull it and check the information in the pages to see if anything jumps out at me. I do recall there is correspondence from his mother and/or father in the file. I'm fairly certain he was NOT listed as MIA. His death was clearly documented in the Stephen Ambrose book Band of Brothers and then later depicted in the mini-series. He wasn't called out by name in the mini-series but he is certainly listed by name in the book. I had read the book long, long before it was turned into a mini-series. In fact, when I picked up my PH I didn't put together the connection between Hill and the book. And more importantly, the seller was completely unaware of Hill being mentioned in the Band of Brothers book. On a hunch, I went to check the book after I had picked up the PH and discovered him listed there much to my surprise.

 

FYI - I believe Dick Winters mentions Hill's death in his memoirs too and states that he retrieved Hill's watch after the battle at Brecourt Manor.

 

Thanks !!

 

Vic

[vicjoy1945]

Oh...BTW I do have several posthumous WWII Navy DFC/AM/PH groups...anyone wanna bite at that amount !?! :think: :thumbsup:

 

Just thought I'd throw that out there !! :w00t:

 

Vic

[matmil]

I would never pay 7k for this group !, the way things are now, looks like the US Medal market is going towards that of the British Medal market and prices, it's so far out , it's driving people away from the hobby.

 

Matt

[Verdun16]

Matt,

Am in total agreement with you on this. These days it seems you can choose between a nice group or a good down payment on a new car, six months of food for the family or a tank of gas in the car

 

Bryan

 

I would never pay 7k for this group !, the way things are now, looks like the US Medal market is going towards that of the British Medal market and prices, it's so far out , it's driving people away from the hobby.

 

Matt

[Jack's Son]

Matt,

Am in total agreement with you on this,

 

Brya

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[gpw_42]

Amazing group and detective work displayed in this thread. AND it's a joy to see that all the participants stayed civil, despite the quantity of money involved.

 

Thanks USMF!

 

Steve

[jager1]

Thought I’d add to this post as I’m the guy who purchased this lot . Not added to the thread before as was waiting until the group arrived and also wanted to PM Vic first but was interested to read other folks thoughts.

 

Before bidding on this group I had done a little research and had come across the posts regarding Vic’s medal and the other Ebay one, so obviously aware of possible problems regarding which good or if both are.

 

Anyway the group arrived today and must admit to being thrilled with it, medals apart (which look good to me), the docs are superb and haven’t any doubts on their originality – of course always better to have things in your hands but I can certainly see why Gary was so confident in them. Patches, well who knows, the 101st is certainly removed from a tunic, the 82nd unused but I imagine these are added later as can't see how somones insignia that was KIA would be back with the family.

 

Document wise interestingly one of the ‘American Legion’ doc is from 9th Feb 1945, so not long after his death - the other May 1976! – one key thing about these is the Legion Post is based in a part of New York that Hill and his parents lived in – and seems always lived until the Fathers death in 1978.

 

There is also a BS citation – see attached, which wasn’t too visible on the auction site but was on Gary’s medal site. looks like the original announcement as opposed to Official Award type a very faint embossed War Department stamp is on it and water mark. Part of the document has what looked like white paint or such bordering off the text. However on handling its clear its been in a frame and the text part has just been effected by exposure to day light.

 

Interestingly, this has been ‘added’ to, including an 82nd Airborne badge as opposed to 101st. Certainly not the kind of mistake a faker would make but makes me wonder if Hill was originally with the 82nd and transferred just before D-Day?? – I know at least One Officer in the 506th transferred from the 82nd and if this was the case his family would probably think Hill was still with the 82nd..- none of the docs give his unit.

 

One of the other posters on the forum was quite correct, I am a collector/dealer, however this group is certainly for myself as it will sit very nicely with a British Para Pegasus Bridge Gallantry award group I have. Price wise, well quite a price, however if this was a British D-Day Gallantry Award, price would be x 4 at least.

 

There are stories about Hill being Married to an English girl when over here in 1944, although I’ve found nothing as yet to confirm this as yet. But all is pointing towards this group being his parents – well so far

 

Jager1

[blitzkrieg gsd]

I want to say congrats on a super nice and rare D-Day group. First let me start by saying my grandfather and his twin brother both tock part in the invasion of Normandy my uncle was KIA on June 6 1944. So i have a soft spot in my heart for all D-Day vets and there groups and it hurts me for real to see any of these faked. Now my opinion on this group it scares me to death this hero would be the perfect target for a skilled faker to home in on. There is alot of shady stuff going on here and i feel for the buyer i like to take a chance to but there may be to much going on here. Jager let me ask you do you think that the other 2 PHs are part of the same guys group you have? If so you may be able to find the family member who first sold the group out of the family. If you could find that family member you could get answers and the truth witch would give you the evidence and provenance to justify what you just spent. I have every thing that the army sent my family after the death of my grandfathers twin on D-Day. My point with that is most of us who have a member of the family killed on D-day hold on to this stuff or would know how and who got rid of it. If you are a dealer you may one day decide to sell this group and with all this conversation you mite need some more to get your money back. I hope you can get what you need and if it is proven the other two PHs are fake you should buy them and destroy them as soon as you can to keep them from takeing way from the importance of your group.

[jager1]

Who knows with the other two hearts, one its certain is wrong, the other...well thats already been talked of. to be honest i don't think there is much doubt with my group, the docs are good, the legion medal too, the bs and ph look correct and i don't think i've worries on loosing on the group when it eventually moves on - which won't be for some time.

 

its an unfortunate fact that every type of militaria is being faked, medals with engraved naming are easily named up by a skilled faker and with so many unamed examples readily available... if this group had been without docs i probably wouldn't have bid on them. Of course docs can also be faked but this is harder depending on the docs makeup.

 

as to family selling stuff, well we collectors would be collecting something else if they didn't. however its really nice to hear you family retain your d-day related stuff

[Kadet]

You are right on the IDPF sometimes providing clues in the family correspondence. I have a KIA SS/PH group w/ an un engraved SS medal. This seems suspicious until you read the IDPF correspondence. The widow was presented w/ the SS locally in her home town, but had to write the government after the fact to get the engraved PH. In another case w/ a 29th ID D-Day PH, the IDPF confirmed that the original PH was misspelled, thus supporting the early 1945 engraving style.

 

I like the group in the UK auction, and would love to see close up of the documents if you get a moment. The PH w/ the funky "Ls" is pretty clearly a fake. The other one....who knows.

 

Some people simply aren't sentimental about objects. They see objects as utilitarian....no day to day use and out they go. My Father in law was a two tour Vietnam Marine. When he retired, everything went in the local land fill. Well...almost everything...

[Jack's Son]

.......and i don't think i've worries on loosing on the group when it eventually moves on - which won't be for some time.

I am happy to hear that you were monitoring this thread and that you have a VERY CLEAR understanding of the grouping and its potential. Your attitude about this makes you a winner already, and brightens my hope that this grouping can come together and proves to be as remarkable as it should be !!

 

 

Enjoy your prize. :thumbsup:

[jager1]

Yes I’ll need to get a copy of the IDPF

 

I’m interested what your saying about your PH KIA groups. I do have a BS double issue engraved KIA PH group , thing is this comes complete with a letter from the issuing authority in Jan 1947 to the soldiers Mother, apologising for the delay in arranging despatch of the Awards. It lists all the Awards he was due, the BS citation, but gives confusingly; one Purple Heart with cluster for second wound and then another purple heart for death. At the end of the letter it does have a small note saying 1 purple Heart and 2 clusters but this seems to have been missed and two separate Hearts were issued. Again interestingly in listing his medals due, it states that the ribbons for the WWII Victory and EAM Campaign medals had been authorised only the ribbons were now available and would be sent with the other Awards. But that there was sure to be wide publicity when they did become available and that she should reapply.. The medals I have are all in the list, including the ribbons mentioned but not the last two medals- presumably she never applied for them.

 

I mention this only because here we have at least hills PH being Awarded/sent in early 1947 too (BS citation I imagine would have been when announced originally)..

 

If you PM me your email, I can send some better quality pics of the docs than I could on the forum.

 

 

Jack’s Son, thanks for your comments, will certainly enjoy owning this group and researching further.

 

I have just found some more info regarding what actually happened to Hill, it seems it wasn’t quite as portrayed in ‘Band of Brothers’….

[wartimecollectables.com]

I am happy to hear that you were monitoring this thread and that you have a VERY CLEAR understanding of the grouping and its potential. Your attitude about this makes you a winner already, and brightens my hope that this grouping can come together and proves to be as remarkable as it should be !!

Enjoy your prize. :thumbsup:

 

I agree wholeheartedly with this! Bottom line is there are apparently no flaws in your group and it is a superb bit of history. If you look at what other U.S. awards are bringing and compare to UK/IIIrd Reich awards, I really don't see the price as out of line with it's rarity and historical value. Vic's heart could easily be a duplicate issue to the same man. Congrats on a fine group in your collection.

[Kadet]

...It is also possible that the second PH pertained to a different man w/ the same name...OR, another family member requested a PH as well. The wife of the KIA often remarried quickly. The wife was the official NOK, but the parents may have wanted one as well. Some of these situations became acrimonious, and the correspondence can be down right nasty. In one of my groups, the man's wife was cheating on him while he was overseas, yet she was the NOK and received everything, to include the medals. Mom didn't like that one bit...

[jager1]

I agree wholeheartedly with this! Bottom line is there are apparently no flaws in your group and it is a superb bit of history. If you look at what other U.S. awards are bringing and compare to UK/IIIrd Reich awards, I really don't see the price as out of line with it's rarity and historical value. Vic's heart could easily be a duplicate issue to the same man. Congrats on a fine group in your collection.

 

 

Thanks Andrew, know we've been in touch on another forum we both use before :thumbsup: Yes agreed regarding UK/Ger medals and militaria, to me US items are no less interesting but in so many cases much cheaper.

 

 

It is also possible that the second PH pertained to a different man w/ the same name...OR, another family member requested a PH as well. The wife of the KIA often remarried quickly. The wife was the official NOK, but the parents may have wanted one as well. Some of these situations became acrimonious, and the correspondence can be down right nasty. In one of my groups, the man's wife was cheating on him while he was overseas, yet she was the NOK and received everything, to include the medals. Mom didn't like that one bit...

 

Can certainly see this as a possiblity with this group.

[siling]

He died June 6, 44 and EAMEC has one silver and one bronze star? :think:

And where is the arrowhead for assault? :think:

[vicjoy1945]

Hey Guys,

 

I pulled the Hill IDPF file for more information....

 

WOJG Hill was married and his wife's name was Mildred. She lived in Altoona, Pennsylvania at the time of his death. Mildred was listed as his next of kin and benificiary. His mother Anna Bell Hill was listed as a second benificiary. WOJR Hill declined to list a third benificiary.

 

WOJR Hill's initial burial took place on June 8, 1944 in Heisville , France. His effects were inventoried on June 28, 1944. There is correspondence in the file dated Oct, 14, 1944 from Hill's father, Ben Hill, requesting the return of his son's effects and information on his burial place and death. There is court ruling posted Dec 7, 1944 regarding the disposition on WOJR Hill's effects deciding in favor of the wife, Mildred, and awarded the effects to her noting that she is his wife and designated benificiary.

 

Mildred still lived in Altoona, Pa. as late as 1948 when she requested that WOJR Hill's remains be brought back for buirial in Altoona.

 

I would surmise that his wife, Mildred, would have received WOJR Hill's posthumously awarded Purple Heart. I would think this medal would have been awarded much earlier than 1947. It appears that his father had an interest in receiving his son's effect and would probably would have been inclined to request a copy of his medals as well. Of course, this is only conjecture.

 

I don't know the exact story of where Andrew found the medal that is in my collection. Perhaps he can elaborate on that one but I'm certain that it was a long time ago...long before there were as many U.S. collectors as there are now !!

 

Back then there was only a handful of Purple Heart collectors and we all knew each other for the most part !!

 

Fun !!

 

Vic

[emaier3]

It appears that his father had an interest in receiving his son's effect and would probably would have been inclined to request a copy of his medals as well. Of course, this is only conjecture.

 

This may be a little off the topic of the post, but I believe it is an interesting question. How much proof is there that family members received "duplicate" KIA awards in World War II? I have seen some evidence that this happened, at least rarely, after 1950, but I have not seen clear evidence that it happened in the 1940's. In fact, I have seen several IDPFs where the families requested an additional set of awards and they were flatly told "No."

 

One family asked because the soldier married an English girl one month before he was killed and the soldier's parents didn't think she should get their son's medals and they should get a set. And the other was a case where the soldier was raised by his much older sister (he called her "Mom" in his letters home), yet the medals went to his oldest brother, who was a drunk and not in contact with the family. In both cases, they were told they could not get extra medals and the awards were going to the person assigned in the "Next-of-Kin" hiearchy.

 

I find this interesting because the awarding of extra sets of posthumous Purple Hearts was a big debate at the beginning of the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars and appears to have been only officially resolved at that time (it revolved around the number of divorced parents today). Yet, we see duplicate Purple Hearts for World War I vets in the 1940's, duplicate sets for living veterans in the 1980's-1990s, and some probable duplicate Purple Hearts for WWII KIAs in the 1950's.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Take care,

Ed Maier

www.tohonorourfallen.com

[Jack's Son]

It is a shame that the appearance of at least two legitimate Hearts will cast a shadow on the grouping. Until ALL of the outstanding pieces are together, there will always be skeptics.

[Jeeper704]

He died June 6, 44 and EAMEC has one silver and one bronze star? :think:

And where is the arrowhead for assault? :think:

 

Seems nobody cares to give an explanation for that.

 

Erwin

[Kadet]

This may be a little off the topic of the post, but I believe it is an interesting question. How much proof is there that family members received "duplicate" KIA awards in World War II? I have seen some evidence that this happened, at least rarely, after 1950, but I have not seen clear evidence that it happened in the 1940's. In fact, I have seen several IDPFs where the families requested an additional set of awards and they were flatly told "No."

 

One family asked because the soldier married an English girl one month before he was killed and the soldier's parents didn't think she should get their son's medals and they should get a set. And the other was a case where the soldier was raised by his much older sister (he called her "Mom" in his letters home), yet the medals went to his oldest brother, who was a drunk and not in contact with the family. In both cases, they were told they could not get extra medals and the awards were going to the person assigned in the "Next-of-Kin" hiearchy.

 

I find this interesting because the awarding of extra sets of posthumous Purple Hearts was a big debate at the beginning of the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars and appears to have been only officially resolved at that time (it revolved around the number of divorced parents today). Yet, we see duplicate Purple Hearts for World War I vets in the 1940's, duplicate sets for living veterans in the 1980's-1990s, and some probable duplicate Purple Hearts for WWII KIAs in the 1950's.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Take care,

Ed Maier

www.tohonorourfallen.com

 

 

I'm sure a lot depended on how big a stink they made and how much pressure was brought to bear. If, for example, the parents were connected to a local politician or Congressman, an extra set of medals was probably obtainable....works the same way today.

[vicjoy1945]

Seems nobody cares to give an explanation for that.

 

Erwin

 

Hey Erwin,

 

There's no question that the campaign medal was added by someone else. I don't think its original to the grouping. This doesn't bother me in the least and it shouldn't challenge the autheniticy of the grouping in my eyes. The Bronze Star and Purple Heart medals appear "right" and the documents appear "right." I just think that this is a second set issued to another relative. I highly doubt this trooper fell through the cracks and his medals weren't issued till 1947...I highly doubt that.

 

I've have viewed many, many posthumous groupings over the past 20+ years of collecting them. I've conferred, compared and debated many groupings with a lot of collectors who specialize in this type of grouping over the years and I have literally hundreds of posthumous groupings in my collection. I think I have a fairly good feel for this stuff !!

 

So now worries on the medal...at least from my POV !

 

Vic

[vicjoy1945]

Hi Ed,

 

I think its tough to find any documentation on the subsequent issuance of posthumous awards to someone other than the next-of-kin because its likely that those documents might have been in the soldier's service file...and, as we all know all too well, chances are very good that those documents were consumed in the infamous fire.

 

I don't think the IDPF file would be the place that type of documentation was kept. Perhaps there's another area in the Archives that handles the issue and engraving of awards that researchers haven't uncovered !?!

 

Although, somewhere in the back of my mind, I remember there was a Pearl Harbor posthumous Navy PH on ebay that researched out to being a second medal issued to the sister of the gallant sailor. Mayve because the Navy files were unaffected by the fire !?!

 

Kurt - do you (or Frank or Adam) remember this one !?!

 

Vic