509th helmet markings

[Gliderinf]

Colours I have heard for Gingerbread men on the side of 509th PIB helmets are =

 

White

Yellow

Orange

 

Are these correct ?

 

What was the fourth colour ?

 

What company wore what colour ?

 

I'm assuming white was HQ company ? ( was Yarboroughs white ?? )

 

Any ideas / Photos / helmets / anecdotes / links / etc etc ?

 

Thanks chaps

[king802]

Red was the other colour you are looking for.

I have not seen any confirmation anywhere of what Coy's had what colours. Not every helmet carried the Gingerbread man, again we see camo helmets alongside plain helmets so there was no standard way of doing things. For North Africa the 509 (or 503rd as they were then) nearly all seem to have Gas Vesicant paint applied, this appears to be the only time they did anything as standard helmets wise. There is colour footage available of them in North Africa and you can see the helmet camo clearly alongside the occasional spray painted jump suit.

For Southern France is seems to be the case of whatever took your fancy and the camo painted helmets were by no means universal.

I have a fixed bail helmet that may be a Southern France veteran (there's no way to be sure) and it's painted green, black and Tan.

 

Rich

[bilko1]

Nice to see you on here Rich mate .

 

Dave.

[Gliderinf]

Red

 

I had a feeling i'd heard Red somwhere. Problem is with 509 its scraps of information from all over the place

 

White - HQ

Yellow - A

Orange - B

Red - C

 

would make sence as it goes through the colour chart - but how to be sure ????

 

theres a bit of a photo gap between North Africa - where clearly all are Cammo ( even though the photos are often labelled as 82nd. and south of france - where they are mixed to a degree with photos of the other two Parachute units - which complictes things.

 

I think there is a very good chance that the Gingerbread system was done properly for Anzio - but Finding evidence

 

Any more evidence folks ?

 

Plus what colour was the Green paint used to cam the jumpsuits ??

 

Apart from standard OD vehicle paint - what other colours were vailable from the quartsermasters store ?

[collectsmedals]

For what it's worth, my Father was with the 509th Scout Company in North Africa and Italy, and the gingerbread man on his helmet was white.

[Gliderinf]

Thats very interesting

 

As far as I'm aware - the scout company was formed in North Africa - after the fighting there had finished - and was de-activated before the Avelino drop. Which is before Gingerbread men on helmets.

 

The scout company is meant to be the foruner of the Pathfinders - but only one stick of pathfinders was used for Avelino. (who were picked for the drop, rather than being a standing unit )

 

So was the scout company still in existence ?

Or had he swapped company by then ?

 

anything else you can tell us, would be great

[collectsmedals]

My Father passed away in 1998 and I am unfortunately not clear on all the details of his military service.

 

Here is what I do know:

 

His transcript of military record, AGO form 01254 shows his date of entry into active service to be 17 Feb 41 with date of first enlistment 9 Feb 40 (PA National Guard 9 Feb 40 to 16 Feb 41) (He was with Company H 112th Infantry.)

 

Organization: Co A 509th Prcht Inf Bn (Note: he always said he was in Scout Company, and he is pictured with Scout Company on page 347 of Charles Doyle's and Terrell Stewart's book "Stand in the Door")

 

His military occupational specialty and number was Prcht Rigger and Repairman 7620. (note: I am using the spelling on the record)

 

His military qualifications were Combat Inf Badge, Prcht Badge, Pistol MKM 21 Apr 41.

 

Battles and Campaigns were Tunisia, Anzio, Naples Foggia, Rome Arno.

 

Decorations and Citations: Silver Star, Bronze Star Medal, Purple Heart W/1 Oak Leaf Cluster, Good Conduct Medal, American Defense, American Campaign Medal, European African Middle Eastern Campaign Medal W/4 Bronze Service Stars and 1 Bronze Arrowhead, Victory Medal WW II, Distinguished Unit Badge.

 

He was awarded the Silver Star on March 25, 1944. In his picture getting his Silver Star from General Mark Clark he has the white gingerbread man on his helmet.

 

He told me his combat jumps were Oran, Youk-Les-Bains, El Djem and Avellino (Salerno) and he had one amphibious assault at Anzio.

[Gliderinf]

Sorry to hear he's gone mate.

 

thats an impressive list of decorations and campaigns !

 

Even did the el Djem jump - only 32 509ers did that one.

 

Listed as A company ? But we cant tell if that is initially or at the end of his time with the unit ?

 

Companys get confucing as origionally they are 1st 504 =

 

HQ , A, B, C,

 

Then 2nd 503 =

 

HQ, D, E, F

 

then 2nd 509 =

 

HQ, D, E, F =

 

Then 2nd 509, but =

 

HQ, Scout, D, E, F

 

then 509

 

HQ, A, B, C

 

So A company is there at the start and the finish - but not in between. Could be that when scout company was disbanded - he carried on being used as a pathfinder - and the troopers doing this still considered this there primary role - even though the Specific unit no longer existed ??

[Gliderinf]

Actually - seeing as it says A 509 rather that A 504 that would sugest being in A at the end of his time with the battalion - and March 44 would be near that. So White could be A company ? but then Yarborough would be HQ and his apears white ?

 

In fact all the photos that I have seen - apear white - but is that just because its hard to tell on B+W photos ?

[Bob Carter]

For Operation Dragoon I was under the asumption that 509 HQ taped a large H on the back of their helmets.

[collectsmedals]

I do not have any documentation that puts him the El Djem jump, but he always said he had three jumps in North Africa and one in Italy plus the amphibious landing at Anzio.

 

The helmet was lost in a house fire in the 1960s, but I remember the gingerbread man as being white. (My brother and I used to play with it, wear it out into the woods, damn what I would give to have it now.) I guess I could be remembering it wrong, it was a long time ago and I was quite young.

 

I still have his medals, 3rd Zouaves badge, 509 patch and Ike jacket.

[Gliderinf]

Shame about the Helmet

 

I think a lot of kids have used up a lot of kit that they wish they had looked after - but at the time nobody thinks to save it

 

"I still have his medals, 3rd Zouaves badge, 509 patch and Ike jacket."

 

Nice - would love to see a pic

 

Ive tried to PM some Photos - not sure if it worked ?

[Gliderinf]

"For Operation Dragoon I was under the asumption that 509 HQ taped a large H on the back of their helmets."

 

Hi Bob, Yes I think there is eveidence of this - but probably only by a small group - Actual HQ rather than HQ company - this is also a temporary thing - so they should have there helmets marked more permanantly as well.

 

I think this practice was used by other units as well - although I have no idea of a run down on that. (which did / which did not / when )

 

Does anybody have more info on the tape issue ?

[Gliderinf]

Bump - Still looking for more info folks

[glenm]

If you look at the ones on M1 helmet.com, there's one on there that had B taped on the back, so it appears that it wasn't just HQ that used the tape marking.

 

Cheers,

Glen.

[Gliderinf]

strangely enough I was having a look see at that earlier

 

Which complicates matters further

[limestone]

Hi! My friend Ben (who is registered as "Gingerbread" in this forum) is the guy that found the two B coy's 509th helmets which are put on Piete's website. One of the helmets (the D bail) has been identified to a soldier KIA (or DOW I'm not sure ). Both helmets were found in a farm outside Saint Tropez. They are just amazing pieces of history.

 

I know Ben has in his collection two or three other camo helmets with gingergread painted in white.

 

I've also seen in a French forum a helmet found at Ciney a few weeks ago. It shows traces of painted MP yellow band and Gingerbread in red paint on sides

 

My friend is actually visiting our big world so I'll tell him to look at your post when he is back.

 

Yannick

[Gliderinf]

thanks Yanick

 

I'm thinking perhaps the colours were done in the first instance - but all changed to white before Dragoon ?????

 

Just seems the majority of evidence says white - whichever company ??

 

As for the tape - HQ of each company ? Officers instead of Stripe ?

[Salvage Sailor]

Found this while watching a US Army Combat Cameraman reel

 

MEDITERRANEAN - INVASION OF SOUTHERN FRANCE - ARMY PICTORIAL SERVICE

 

There are no distinct patches due to the low-light and poor conditions, but the camoulflage on the uniforms & helmets suggest that these are the 509th 'gingerbread' men.

 

Two men in column with 'H' on their helmets walking through a drop zone in the dark

[Salvage Sailor]

Another frame

[Salvage Sailor]

Here's the BAR man as they emerged into the light

 

Note the home made camo

[J_Andrews]

The Scout Company was a Provisional unit, meaning temporary. IIRC there was a Company D formed from it (and other, replacement personnel) when the unit designation was changed to Parachute Inf Battalion. Prior to that, the TO&E was that of a Bn organic to a PIR. As the published TO&E for such a separate Bn included such a fourth line company, the 509th got one. The strength of the line Co's and the assets contained in HQ Co also increased under the new TO&E.