Unmarked Knife Identification

[DSchlagan]

Do y'all remember the old joke:

..."What's a henway?"

Answer:

......."About two pounds..."

 

I can figure several different ways to illustrate the futility, of trying to discern the knife making environment/locale, by the thickness of the finished metal; this one had some humor involved. No offense.

 

 

Just because you may be getting nice 'round' (SAE decimal) numbers, really doesn't mean much.

You describe the guard "stock is .950 wide, 1.75 thick, and 2.4 inches in length." Of those figures, the only one having bearing would be the thickness.

I suppose that the decimal point was misplaced; thus: .175".

As mild steel and/or brass plate is conventionally (U.S) manufactured/sold in fractional thicknesses, the closest thickness available would be 3/16" (.1875") plate. One can easily observe that comparative SAE decimal figures mean next to nothing for the purpose of ID'ing the knife.

Forgetting every other process involved, simply 'hard/aggressive' buffing can remove many thousandths.

 

This latest discovery, "I just noticed, the blade's edge carries through the" guard, further confirms this as more than likely handmade or an altered knife, IMHO.

A knife w/o a step-cut is rather unusual, especially in this configuration.

 

What, by the way, makes you certain that the guard was "stamped out"? I have yet to observe any indication of such.

[warshard]

Do y'all remember the old joke:

..."What's a henway?"

Answer:

......."About two pounds..."

 

I can figure several different ways to illustrate the futility, of trying to discern the knife making environment/locale, by the thickness of the finished metal; this one had some humor involved. No offense.

Just because you may be getting nice 'round' (SAE decimal) numbers, really doesn't mean much.

You describe the guard "stock is .950 wide, 1.75 thick, and 2.4 inches in length." Of those figures, the only one having bearing would be the thickness.

I suppose that the decimal point was misplaced; thus: .175".

As mild steel and/or brass plate is conventionally (U.S) manufactured/sold in fractional thicknesses, the closest thickness available would be 3/16" (.1875") plate. One can easily observe that comparative SAE decimal figures mean next to nothing for the purpose of ID'ing the knife.

Forgetting every other process involved, simply 'hard/aggressive' buffing can remove many thousandths.

 

This latest discovery, "I just noticed, the blade's edge carries through the" guard, further confirms this as more than likely handmade or an altered knife, IMHO.

A knife w/o a step-cut is rather unusual, especially in this configuration.

 

What, by the way, makes you certain that the guard was "stamped out"? I have yet to observe any indication of such.

 

Decimal points do get misplaced now and again--in providing the existing measurements, just making an attempt to provide what may very well be relavant info in the absence of to-the-point questions--in life, questions are the hard part--the answers come easily after the correct questions are asked. I, of course, do not know anything of your experience in the processes of manufactured metal objects and could not expect you to notice the earmarks of a stamped hilt from the images provided which leads me to attempt to understand why you would question my observance; however, in light of your query of how I made the determination that the hilt was stamped, I'll take you to the very basics of the manufacturing of metal objects, specificially the stamping process--metals, when stamped by a die press, leave a specific "tell" or mark on the metal having been stamped: when the die first strikes the metal, the cut is clean as compared to the opposite side of the stamping--as the die bottoms out to finish the cut, the cut ceases to be clean and crisp; instead, it creates a grain-like appearance when the final thrust of the die completes the stamping process by mashing the metal as the cut is completed with the breaking of the metal instead of a clean cut, thus providing a "tell" for the particular die utilized. In short, a crisp through cut of tough metal would decrease the life of the die. The unfinished stamped out hilt is the only crude, production element of the blade--perhaps, the hilt was procurred from another job shop specializing in metal stamping--in contemporary terms, it was possibly out sourced.

WARSHARD

[warshard]

I'd echo the above. The lack of a positive id from this forum by now would cause me to post on another forum to see if there's a way to narrow down the origins of this knife. Frankly I've seen all kinds of styles of blades from every corner of the world. I've also seen great one of a kind pieces from craftsmen who didn't specialize in knives.

 

I am in accord with what is written here--the knife, however, is a killing knife with little commercial use--if you have seen "all kinds of blades from every corner of the world", you should have seen a tear drop pommel--I don't think such a pommel would have been cast for this particular knife or run of knives--can you provide any info on the pommel--

Thank you for your interest and feed back--

WARSHARD

[DSchlagan]

Q:"What, by the way, makes you certain that the guard was "stamped out"?"

A: "...metals, when stamped by a die press, leave a specific "tell" or mark on the metal having been stamped..."

 

Statement: "I have yet to observe any indication of such."

Response: "...and could not expect you to notice the earmarks of a stamped hilt from the images provided..."

 

Could my point, perhaps, have been that the "additional close-up photos", which were requested in Post #3, could have aided the realization that the hilt was die-stamped?

 

Also, if you would have previously mentioned that the guard was in fact die-stamped, and bore it's signature, then the above question would have needn't been asked.

 

Shore is a nice knife, tho.

[elbertson]

My final thoughts:

- edge grind to the guard makes me think it might possibly be Scandinavian

- the measurements really don't mean much, as I highly doubt anyone checked the final dimensions to see if

they met exact tolerances after they left the belt grinder...it's a knife, not a firearm bolt

- I don't think it really has a connection to US militaria beyond speculation

 

I would post it in a Scandi knife/militaria forum and see if it might be recognized

[warshard]

Q:"What, by the way, makes you certain that the guard was "stamped out"?"

A: "...metals, when stamped by a die press, leave a specific "tell" or mark on the metal having been stamped..."

 

Statement: "I have yet to observe any indication of such."

Response: "...and could not expect you to notice the earmarks of a stamped hilt from the images provided..."

 

Could my point, perhaps, have been that the "additional close-up photos", which were requested in Post #3, could have aided the realization that the hilt was die-stamped?

 

Also, if you would have previously mentioned that the guard was in fact die-stamped, and bore it's signature, then the above question would have needn't been asked.

 

Shore is a nice knife, tho.

 

It seems that this has turned out to be a circular firing squad and I regret it--to answer your first question: I offered to provide specific images of the knife as requested--none were requested before your most recent post. As for your question two: your post (26) referred to my several assertions of a stamped out hilt in my previous description offerings, so this nullifies the rational for your question two--Hope this adequately covers your additional concerns. If there is no means to provide an interpretiion of the manufacture/history of this knife, then there is no valid need to go further--

Thanks to all-

WARSHARD

[warshard]

My final thoughts:

- edge grind to the guard makes me think it might possibly be Scandinavian

- the measurements really don't mean much, as I highly doubt anyone checked the final dimensions to see if

they met exact tolerances after they left the belt grinder...it's a knife, not a firearm bolt

- I don't think it really has a connection to US militaria beyond speculation

 

I would post it in a Scandi knife/militaria forum and see if it might be recognized

 

Thank you for your input on identifying this knife--as for final dimensions--providing for customary stock removal at the grinder, my assertion is that beginning dimensions minus metal removed during the manufacture process can be projected much closer to non-metric raw stock dimensions than to metric raw stock.

 

After all that has been said, I now lean towards a theater-type knife since the edge carries through the hilt--I do still remain adament about the tear shaped pommel and its origin--this pommel is not a one of a kind and I think someone could have nailed down that anomaly if it had been provided adequate consideration.

 

Thanks again--

WARSHARD

[elbertson]

... and I think someone could have nailed down that anomaly if it had been provided adequate consideration.

In all fairness, realize that you have posted a knife that isn't a US military issue knife, and likely not even a US commercial production piece, in a US militaria edged weapons subforum. Although I collect all sorts of knives, my main interest has always been US military knives. Many here only collect US military knives. For you to imply that the only reason no one has positively ID'd your knife is because they haven't given it adequate consideration is not in good taste, nor considerate of you given the context of it all. No one here is obliged to even respond to your posting, but many have even though they can't ID your knife, in an attempt to be helpful and maybe guide you toward an answer. I've spend some time looking through a couple of my books and googling around trying to help... it's not my knife, I have no stock in it nor anything to gain from it's ID..but I'm curious and try to be helpful, as others have. There are several knife forums on the internet where Bernard Levine hosts/moderates subforums in knife identification. He has written several informative guides for knife collectors and is a pro at what he does. I suggest you might try posting your knife in one of those forums to see if he can help.

I sincerely wish you the best in finding the answers you seek, but think you should broaden your search as I believe someone somewhere will take one look at it and have the answers.

[warshard]

In all fairness, realize that you have posted a knife that isn't a US military issue knife, and likely not even a US commercial production piece, in a US militaria edged weapons subforum. Although I collect all sorts of knives, my main interest has always been US military knives. Many here only collect US military knives. For you to imply that the only reason no one has positively ID'd your knife is because they haven't given it adequate consideration is not in good taste, nor considerate of you given the context of it all. No one here is obliged to even respond to your posting, but many have even though they can't ID your knife, in an attempt to be helpful and maybe guide you toward an answer. I've spend some time looking through a couple of my books and googling around trying to help... it's not my knife, I have no stock in it nor anything to gain from it's ID..but I'm curious and try to be helpful, as others have. There are several knife forums on the internet where Bernard Levine hosts/moderates subforums in knife identification. He has written several informative guides for knife collectors and is a pro at what he does. I suggest you might try posting your knife in one of those forums to see if he can help.

I sincerely wish you the best in finding the answers you seek, but think you should broaden your search as I believe someone somewhere will take one look at it and have the answers.

 

Sir--you quote me out of context. I made reference to the anomolay of the pommel only and not to overall lack of consideration to the knife by those contributing to this thread--I will state again: this pommel type should been given adequate consideration; it should be recognizable among military/theater knife collectors--surely there are other documented identified knives produced with this pommel--it seems that no one has adddressed this issue--if this particular style pommel could be identified, it could very well indicate the period in which the knife was produced.

 

Throughout this thread, I have thanked everyone for input to which you imply otherwise--seems regretfully the circular firing squad is reforming--with that said, thank you for your input and I will retire this subject and wait for someone to recognize the pommel and advise me of its possible vintage--

 

WARSHARD

[gunbarrel]

with that said, thank you for your input and I will retire this subject and wait for someone to recognize the pommel and advise me of its possible vintage--

 

WARSHARD

:bye1: