Unmarked Knife Identification

[warshard]

I have had this blade for a couple of years now and have not been able to have it identified. The blade is unmarked, but is well made and still very solid. From my years as a defense contractor, I believe the blade to be contract made and not one or several of a kind since the hilt was stamped out on a production run. Overall, the knife is well made of good steel with nicely finished work on the stacked leather handle--Hope someone can shed some light on its origin. Thanks to all.

Regards--

Warshard

 

 

[gunbarrel]

A very nice knife. IMHO is a theater modified knife. The blade probably came from a factory knife.

[DSchlagan]

Hello warshard, and welcome to the forum.

 

A real nice example, and it appears to be a very well made knife!

 

While some additional close-up photos would be helpful, I believe that what you have is what is commonly referred to as a 'theatre-made' knife.

It's various detail/appearance leads me to consider that this could likely have been made for use in WWII.

A 9 1/2"+ blade length also seems a little long for (then) normal spec'd blades.

Which part of the handle assembly (guard, grip, pommel) leads you to believe that it "was stamped out on a production run"?

 

I have a quite similar looking theatre knife that was made for my 'Uncle' by his dad; it was carried in WWII.

Thanks for reminding me to post it.

[warshard]

Hello warshard, and welcome to the forum.

 

A real nice example, and it appears to be a very well made knife!

 

While some additional close-up photos would be helpful, I believe that what you have is what is commonly referred to as a 'theatre-made' knife.

It's various detail/appearance leads me to consider that this could likely have been made for use in WWII.

A 9 1/2"+ blade length also seems a little long for (then) normal spec'd blades.

Which part of the handle assembly (guard, grip, pommel) leads you to believe that it "was stamped out on a production run"?

 

I have a quite similar looking theatre knife that was made for my 'Uncle' by his dad; it was carried in WWII.

Thanks for reminding me to post it.

[warshard]

Hello warshard, and welcome to the forum.

 

A real nice example, and it appears to be a very well made knife!

 

While some additional close-up photos would be helpful, I believe that what you have is what is commonly referred to as a 'theatre-made' knife.

It's various detail/appearance leads me to consider that this could likely have been made for use in WWII.

A 9 1/2"+ blade length also seems a little long for (then) normal spec'd blades.

Which part of the handle assembly (guard, grip, pommel) leads you to believe that it "was stamped out on a production run"?

 

I have a quite similar looking theatre knife that was made for my 'Uncle' by his dad; it was carried in WWII.

Thanks for reminding me to post it.

 

 

The guard (hilt) was stamped out--I have other theater knives which were made from knife steel/files, etc with the hilt and pommel of aircraft/naval aluminum and the handle made of stacked aircraft bakelite. I am wondering how this knife was modified to denote it as a theater knife as well as what the original knife could have been--

Warshard

[SKIPH]

I think it was a very limited production knife. Too well made for a theater. The fit of the guard, handle, and that really well made pommel, w/ the excellent peening screams production to me. What a really nice knife! Probably a prototype since no one has seen this type before. What's the blade length? SKIP

[gunbarrel]

I think it was a very limited production knife. Too well made for a theater. The fit of the guard, handle, and that really well made pommel, w/ the excellent peening screams production to me. What a really nice knife! Probably a prototype since no one has seen this type before. What's the blade length? SKIP

 

Skip,

 

I respectfully disagree. I stay away from calling something a prototype when I don't know what it is. Collectors forums are full of such assessments. IMHO, this knife screams "theater made" to me. If you don't have this book, get it when you get a chance:

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...howtopic=113284

 

You will change your opinion ("Too well made for a theater").

[gunbarrel]

PS If I read the measuring tape right, it looks like a 9-9¼" blade.

[warshard]

While still leaning on my years of ownig a defense contacting business, I have been involved in hundreds of hours of prototype work. This is definitely a contract-type knife to which I previously alluded--a reason for which I have not given is that, as a cutler, I cannot see any evidence of the knife beig cut down from any other kind of knife--it apears to be just as you see, a well-made knife--which begs the question: if it is a prototype, is further identification possible--is information available that may lead to the identification of a job shop or contractor that manufactured this type of knife. Can we all agree that it is a fighting knife. If it is a theater knife, would it not have been cut down from another type of knife, which, would have to have had a longer blade. I can't see any reason why anyone would have taken a sword, for instance, and cut it down, replacing the sword's hilt, handle, and pommel with the handle elements as they currently exist. I think an important element to determine for those who think that this a theater knife is the identification of the original blade from which it was altered into a theater knife. Some have requested additional pics--if they will help in the identification, please let me know what type of additonal pictures are needed--I really appreciate the feed back thus far provided.

WARSHARD

[elbertson]

I'm not going to speculate on who made it or how as it could have been made most anywhere. I know I've never seen one like it. I'm pretty positive that the blade is not from any US issued knife.

[Spathologist]

I agree this looks like a well-made knife, and no shop project. It could be a cut-down sword blade, as many WWII-era knives were, but I haven't seen a cut-down with such nice workmanship.

 

I've noticed a tendency to immediately proclaim "theater-made!" when a knife shows up without markings. This knife was made with a lot of machine involvement, and the work appears to be top-notch. This particular example looks nothing like the usual fare of knives ground out in a ship's machine shop or the floor of a hangar.

 

It obviously wasn't produced in mass-quantity, or the specialists here would have recognized it. But, at the least, it was produced in a well-equipped shop out of quality commercial materials by a person who knew exactly what they were about. That's the antithesis of a "theater-made!" knife.

[mayralphie]

I have seen alot of theater made knives over the years. Some are very well made like this one and some a very crude. Many have full non cut blades from other knives and some are cut down. My best guess is this is either a theater made knife or it is a commercial made knife that is not military. You might want to post this to a foreign blade forum and see if anyone has an idea.

[SKIPH]

Gunbarrel- I agree w/ you on the word "prototype". I don't like using that word unless I know for sure. At 0549, trying to head out the door for work, it came out. I own a true prototype,1 of 50, very well documented. I tossed that word through my mind for 30 miles to work. I knew it was a poor choice, and would be called on it. Yet who knows? But, the mystery of the knife is not solved. I have seen that "tear drop" shaped pommel before, but can't pin it down. I'm thinking we may have to research British or Austalian knives. SKIP

[gunbarrel]

Skip,

I know how it is at that time in the morning; I'm sorry I had to "call" you on it. But, since I'm also up early, you'll get a chance to do it to me soon enough

 

All,

Regarding the comments about a theater knife, a good definition is "A theater knife is a handmade or altered knife made in or for a certain theater of war." A theater knife does not have to be made by Bubba with rudimentary tools in the rear; superb knives by expert craftsmen in their shop fall in the category of theater knife. As a matter of fact, they used to be called "shop knives."

 

Whatever it is (it may not even be a military knife...it could be a hunting knife), it appears to me that the blade started out as a factory knife and then it was altered with the custom handle and guard. And if it was done for a certain theater of war, that makes it a theater knife.

[DSchlagan]

One of my favorite axioms/adages is "Tools do not a craftsman make."

All of the fancy, expensive, and complicated machines ever conceived by mankind, combined, are not going to miraculously transform 'just anyone' into a "mechanic"; and I use the 'old world' definition of "mechanic": as someone highly skilled as a tradesman/artisan.

 

A mechanic can take the most rudimentary of tools, even creating new tooling as required, and turn out a finished product that is certainly worthy of being deemed a "masterpiece". The museums (and private collections) that care for the antiquities of man, are virtually littered with such examples.

In the same fashion, a mechanic can also take a relatively simple piece of equipment or machinery, and make it do things that would cause the uninitiated/FNG/apprentice head-spins toward dizziness. Bank on it.

 

 

To me, the definition of a "theatre made knife", would serve to encompass and recognize the many one-a-kind (or exremely limited produced) knives that many of us, as military knife collectors, have a special fondness and appreciation for. With especial regard to WWII, these knives seem to be much more prolific; likely due to the initial scarcity of "spec-issued" knives.

 

It makes no difference:

Whether the blade was Mastersmith-forged from the finest bladesteel; or reclaimed from a sword, another knife, or ground from an old lawnmower blade.

Whether the hilt assembly was made from silver and ivory; or scrap-iron, used leather belting, or old barn-boards.

 

Perhaps, they could just as well be considered 'custom-made military knives'. I am certain that the man who was presented such a knife, before being deployed to a combat theatre, carried it with much pride and veneration.

These same feelings have been shared by many fathers and sons throughout the ages; I would highly doubt that the tear in the recipient's eye would have been because the knife was possibly one of the cruder ones made.

 

Of course there are also many "varied" examples of theatre produced knives.

Anybody wanna step through the door of time, aboard a U.S. Navy ship, go below deck to 'the shop', stroll in and tell the Machinist's Mates on duty that their work was bordering on lookin' like a POS? I didn't think so. Likely the last door that you would ever have to worry about opening there flash.

 

 

Quality is in many ways in the eye of the beholder, as well as based on the skill of the maker; with the desired result necessarily conforming to the purpose(s) at hand.

The vast majority of knives made for WWII were geared towards the utilitarian tasks that a good working knife possesses and can afford it's user. Most were designed to do both a decent job at cutting line and effective pig-stickin'.

There are also many that were produced, whether true production or theatre made, in which their maker saw fit to go several degrees further than what is required to make a good, dependable, and usable knife, and craft it more towards a thing of beauty.

This gives collectors a personal choice of whether to specialize in the 'saltier', or the unissued; the E. W. Stone Shipboard Knuckle Knife, or one of the countless other theatre knives carefully crafted by whomever's level of skill; and thoughtfully presented.

R/O

 

Don.

[DSchlagan]

Yeah,

And what GB managed to say in just two paragraphs, too! :think:

[mayralphie]

The more I look at this knife the more I am convinced that it may be a theater made knife but I would say Vietnam era not WW 2. It has a destinct Vietnam shape to it but who knows.

[Jack's Son]

Whatever it is (it may not even be a military knife...it could be a hunting knife), it appears to me that the blade started out as a factory knife and then it was altered with the custom handle and guard. And if it was done for a certain theater of war, that makes it a theater knife.

AND , all these years I've been working with a small flashlight, at the movies! :crying:

[warshard]

I will certainly go out on a limb and say that this blade is a military knife from the stamped out hilt to the contoured stacked leather grip, which to me, screams Viet Nam era--someone correct me if I am wrong (and I am experienced at being wrong) the particular contour of the stacked leather grip would not have come from a pre WWII knife design. And, the knife is definitely not a hunting knife--I have been an avid hunter for over 55 years and I cannot think of a use for such a blade short of sticking the juglar of a large animal after a kill. I think SKIPH is on to something when he mentioned the tear drop shaped pommel. In identifying antiques and collectibles of all kinds, there is usually an "earmark" that will be the clue to identification and I think the tear shaped pommel could very well be the key. I am certainly appreciative of all the head scratching going on, and I think this blade deserves it becaues it is definitely quality. A question comes to mind: no one has queried about thickness or width of blade--would that be of help--if the measurements are closer to millimeter than inches, then, possibly Europe or Australia could be country of origin--I'd like very much to have this blade identified and will aprovide any further information you folks require--

Regards to all-

WARSHARD

[warshard]

I will certainly go out on a limb and say that this blade is a military knife from the stamped out hilt to the contoured stacked leather grip, which to me, screams Viet Nam era--someone correct me if I am wrong (and I am experienced at being wrong) the particular contour of the stacked leather grip would not have come from a pre WWII knife design. And, the knife is definitely not a hunting knife--I have been an avid hunter for over 55 years and I cannot think of a use for such a blade short of sticking the juglar of a large animal after a kill. I think SKIPH is on to something when he mentioned the tear drop shaped pommel. In identifying antiques and collectibles of all kinds, there is usually an "earmark" that will be the clue to identification and I think the tear shaped pommel could very well be the key. I am certainly appreciative of all the head scratching going on, and I think this blade deserves it becaues it is definitely quality. A question comes to mind: no one has queried about thickness or width of blade--would that be of help--if the measurements are closer to millimeter than inches, then, possibly Europe or Australia could be country of origin--I'd like very much to have this blade identified and will aprovide any further information you folks require--

Regards to all-

WARSHARD

[warshard]

In an attempt to keep this thread going, I provide the additional image of the handle area plus my conclusion that the stock material is not in millimeters--using a dial caliper, all the measurements when transformed into millimeters, yield whole millimeters plus fractions of millimeters, which to me, defeats the purpose of the metric system. The blade stock is .200 at the closest point measurable to the hilt (area absent of slight sharpening wear). After the first four inches from the hilt, the blade was thinned .010 of an inch approximately every two inches towards the tip. The hilt stock is .950 wide, 1.75 thick, and 2.4 inches in length. To me, all this denotes that the blade is US made. In a proper light, I can see evidence of very slight mill marks on the spine that have been honed down to near nonexistance. An additional bit I just noticed, the blade's edge carries through the hilt denoting that the hilt was fitted to an existing edge which could denote a cut down of a preexisting blade. All this said, I still think the shape of the pommel is a tell important to identifying the blade. This knife was certainly carried and used: slight wear on the left upper edge of the pommel as well as what I believe to be blood residue at the fitting of the hilt to the blade.

WARSHARD

 

[elbertson]

the blade's edge carries through the hilt

Are you saying that the guard has an angled slot that accepts the edge grind of the blade? Also, I wouldn't read too much into the measurement system, every surface has likely been worked to some degree by hand.

[warshard]

Are you saying that the guard has an angled slot that accepts the edge grind of the blade? Also, I wouldn't read too much into the measurement system, every surface has likely been worked to some degree by hand.

 

Yes the hilt is built to receive the sharpened bevel of the blade--and done so quite well-I could do it, but I would not even attempt--too much trouble. As for the measurement, I still think the original metal stock for the knife is US since the existing measurements are at or just under nonmetric stock sizes which provides for working the metal from original stock size to actual callouts for the measurements.

WARSHARD

[elbertson]

Yes the hilt is built to receive the sharpened bevel of the blade--and done so quite well-I could do it, but I would not even attempt--too much trouble. As for the measurement, I still think the original metal stock for the knife is US since the existing measurements are at or just under nonmetric stock sizes which provides for working the metal from original stock size to actual callouts for the measurements.

WARSHARD

 

Don't discount the UK as a possible source, then. Their use of metrics for linear measurement is fairly recent and limited, also.

[sactroop]

I have seen alot of theater made knives over the years. Some are very well made like this one and some a very crude. Many have full non cut blades from other knives and some are cut down. My best guess is this is either a theater made knife or it is a commercial made knife that is not military. You might want to post this to a foreign blade forum and see if anyone has an idea.

 

I'd echo the above. The lack of a positive id from this forum by now would cause me to post on another forum to see if there's a way to narrow down the origins of this knife. Frankly I've seen all kinds of styles of blades from every corner of the world. I've also seen great one of a kind pieces from craftsmen who didn't specialize in knives.