eriksale Posted September 6, 2011 Share #26 Posted September 6, 2011 Hi Dave,With all due respect to the Colonel,while it would be nice to believe that any one man has seen it all, this almost always proves to not be the case.I think that I can say with a good amount of confidence that any unit Commander that served in Vietnam never saw all of the types and variations of the patches from his own unit. You've already stated that there was another"Dirty Thirty",which came as a surprise to me,because I believed that there were only the original 30!Do you know how many other "Dirty Thirty" crews there were?Thanks though for all the info on the unit,I'm not a unit historian,but I am a patch and badge collector, and I have a few things to say about the patch that I have posted here.One,it's an authentic piece,to the Vietnam war period,and to the unit.Two,I acquired it from a person that I trust just as much as you trust the Colonel. Three,theatre made patches have many variations,I have collected Vietnam era theatre and incountry made patches for over 10 years now,and I can say this with utmost certainty:I have not seen it all! I do have authentic examples of patches made during the war,incountry and theatre made,that have variations.They are all authentic,but to an untrained eye,some may appear to not be so.I have contacted vets,showing them pieces that are proven authentic,and a few of the vets actually refused to believe that the patch is real,as they had never seen it themselves.But many times,a patch will be made up and used before,or after the vet has been incountry;or it is made by a different shop,which is where the varieties spring up from.Either way,there are differences that us collectors look for,discuss,and hopefully,do not quickly discount simply because it is not exactly like the one that they have. Well,that's it from my end,welcome to the Forum and I hope that your interest in patch collecting will grow, it's a great hobby! Steve As I said your the collector, all I know is there were 2 groups, with no in and out in either to my knowledge, Col Rathgeber was in the second group. I will explore some more for you/us but so far neither group recalls your style patch as one they had, I see from your post you seem to know country of origin of many patches. I know from DT personell I have talked with a "local" made these patches and they did vary primarily in the "eyes" of the Ram. In AF museum is a special one made for Curtis Lemay (SP) which basically was the best one made, that he donated to the AF museum. So will reasearch together! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchcollector Posted September 6, 2011 Share #27 Posted September 6, 2011 SteveAs I said your the collector, all I know is there were 2 groups, with no in and out in either to my knowledge, Col Rathgeber was in the second group. I will explore some more for you/us but so far neither group recalls your style patch as one they had, I see from your post you seem to know country of origin of many patches. I know from DT personell I have talked with a "local" made these patches and they did vary primarily in the "eyes" of the Ram. In AF museum is a special one made for Curtis Lemay (SP) which basically was the best one made, that he donated to the AF museum. So will reasearch together! Dave Sounds great Dave,I'm sure that we will both learn something from this! I'm going to post some nice close ups of my patch tomorrow,so that everyone can get a good look at the patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eriksale Posted September 6, 2011 Share #28 Posted September 6, 2011 Sounds great Dave,I'm sure that we will both learn something from this! I'm going to post some nice close ups of my patch tomorrow,so that everyone can get a good look at the patch. Just out of curiosity I don't believe there are more than a hundred of these in existance, but my dad has three so 180 tops, so what is the collectors value? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steverino Posted September 6, 2011 Share #29 Posted September 6, 2011 Just out of curiosity I don't believe there are more than a hundred of these in existance, but my dad has three so 180 tops, so what is the collectors value?Dave Dave, The value is a nebulous thing. I sold one of these a few years ago for $200. Was that high? Was it low? Did I find the only guy who even knew what it was, or how rare it is? Who knows? Some of the pilots also had French-made VNAF squadron badges for one of the early transport squadrons. Rare stuff indeed. Patch Johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchcollector Posted September 6, 2011 Share #30 Posted September 6, 2011 I wanted to get some close up detail shots of my Dirty Thirty variation patch up. As you can see,everything is beautifully handsewn with the exception of the center background,the blue and maroon colors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchcollector Posted September 6, 2011 Share #31 Posted September 6, 2011 2, Sorry about the shadow,no matter where I positioned my camera,it appeared! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchcollector Posted September 6, 2011 Share #32 Posted September 6, 2011 3,Sorry about the flash too,I was WAY close to the patch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchcollector Posted September 6, 2011 Share #33 Posted September 6, 2011 4,showing more of the precision hand sewing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchcollector Posted September 6, 2011 Share #34 Posted September 6, 2011 5,I tried to get a nice closeup of the Lightning bolt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchcollector Posted September 6, 2011 Share #35 Posted September 6, 2011 6,a back shot,looks like green cotton backing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchcollector Posted September 6, 2011 Share #36 Posted September 6, 2011 Well that's it for my closeup pics.One thing to consider with the Dirty Thirty patches;was there any support personnel wearing them? Most times,the support people will wear the same patch as the pilots,and if this was the case with the Dirty Thirty patch,then many more pieces could have been made.Also Dave,I started a thread called Vietnam war era 18th Aviation Company patches tonight,in part because I wanted to illustrate to you how theatre made patches can come in many different varieties.In the 18th patches,notice the differences between the design elements,some even have text design differences.All of the 18th patches are authentic,just different makers.This is typical of incountry and theatre made patches,many were made in peoples' houses! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eriksale Posted September 7, 2011 Share #37 Posted September 7, 2011 Well that's it for my closeup pics.One thing to consider with the Dirty Thirty patches;was there any support personnel wearing them?Most times,the support people will wear the same patch as the pilots,and if this was the case with the Dirty Thirty patch,then many more pieces could have been made.Also Dave,I started a thread called Vietnam war era 18th Aviation Company patches tonight,in part because I wanted to illustrate to you how theatre made patches can come in many different varieties.In the 18th patches,notice the differences between the design elements,some even have text design differences.All of the 18th patches are authentic,just different makers.This is typical of incountry and theatre made patches,many were made in peoples' houses! Steve I'll take a look at your other post. As far as support personnel there was either none or heard maybe 1 Sgt. All the Dirty Thirty did their own dirty work All mechanics etc. were Vietnamese. I'll look at your pics more closley later. Believe it or not I'm a manufactuere's rep in the photo business so if you'll tell me how you are trying to shoot these and equipment I maybe able to give you suggestions. The patch I posted was scanned. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eriksale Posted September 7, 2011 Share #38 Posted September 7, 2011 Well that's it for my closeup pics.One thing to consider with the Dirty Thirty patches;was there any support personnel wearing them?Most times,the support people will wear the same patch as the pilots,and if this was the case with the Dirty Thirty patch,then many more pieces could have been made.Also Dave,I started a thread called Vietnam war era 18th Aviation Company patches tonight,in part because I wanted to illustrate to you how theatre made patches can come in many different varieties.In the 18th patches,notice the differences between the design elements,some even have text design differences.All of the 18th patches are authentic,just different makers.This is typical of incountry and theatre made patches,many were made in peoples' houses! Steve Just took a look at the photo's and here are some differences I see FYI: Lettering. Mine appear to be a single stich, yours appear to be thicker ie more thread? Mine beard on the goat, your's no beard. And mentioned before curled horns and no backing on mine. Also the other one pictured in thread is same as mine. All that being said the 2 I have in office have some very slight "accent" differences. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steverino Posted September 7, 2011 Share #39 Posted September 7, 2011 PatchIf you can tell me where this "tab" is I can look at the Sq photo and see if I can spot and on who? Dave Dave, In the photo, this pilot is standing with a few others (it is NOT the entire group photo). Each man is wearing the DT patch on their right pocket. One of the patches had a tab on the top of the patch that said "MAAG VIETNAM". I don't have the photo any longer, but the memory of it is still fresh in my mind. Most of those guys were WWII vets and were nearing the end of their USAF careers in '62-'63. Patch Johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eriksale Posted September 7, 2011 Share #40 Posted September 7, 2011 Dave, In the photo, this pilot is standing with a few others (it is NOT the entire group photo). Each man is wearing the DT patch on their right pocket. One of the patches had a tab on the top of the patch that said "MAAG VIETNAM". I don't have the photo any longer, but the memory of it is still fresh in my mind. Most of those guys were WWII vets and were nearing the end of their USAF careers in '62-'63. Patch Johnson Patch I'll try and check a whole bunch of articles I have several have group or individual pictures. As far as end of careers my dad retired in 69 and he may have been one of the first to retire, He was 37 - 38 in VN, the youngest was about 29. I know many retired in early to mid 70's. Also interesting is many were WWII vets but very few went to Korea. There is more story as when I have talked with several they get to a point and won't talk anymore, including my dad. I don't think it was that secret just they were told to keep a low profile, which has carried over today. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walt323 Posted January 18, 2013 Share #41 Posted January 18, 2013 Here is a picture of Capt. Floyd Millis wearing the patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firefighter Posted January 18, 2013 Share #42 Posted January 18, 2013 Here is a picture of Capt. Floyd Millis wearing the patch. Great Pic.I love the VN rank insignia on the, Australian looking, bush hat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riflegreen297 Posted January 24, 2015 Share #43 Posted January 24, 2015 Great stories and information. I stumbled onto this thread after coming into possession of a Dirty Thirty patch and doing some research here on the forum. I figured I would resurrect it with a scan of my Dirty Thirty patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eriksale Posted October 28, 2016 Share #44 Posted October 28, 2016 Great stories and information. I stumbled onto this thread after coming into possession of a Dirty Thirty patch and doing some research here on the forum. I figured I would resurrect it with a scan of my Dirty Thirty patch. dirty 30_0001.jpg dirty 30b.jpg I haven't been on in a while but will say your patch does appear to be "Original" I have 2 from my dad (member Dirty Thirty") look the same. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firefighter Posted October 28, 2016 Share #45 Posted October 28, 2016 Here are my pictures from the National Museum of the USAF. http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/275836-the-dirty-thirty-at-the-af-museum/?hl=%2Bdirty+%2Bthirty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eriksale Posted November 24, 2016 Share #46 Posted November 24, 2016 Here are my pictures from the National Museum of the USAF. http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/275836-the-dirty-thirty-at-the-af-museum/?hl=%2Bdirty+%2Bthirty McCoy was in my dad's group (First) Rutter was in second group. Some of the way they dressed uniforms not sure correct. Plus my dad said except for coming and going in flight suit. Also FYI they were never "advisors" They were "on loan" Co-pilots as combatants period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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