US Logistics to Europe during WWII

[kilian]

I am not sure where to ask this question so I´ll try here first.

 

I was wondering how long it would have taken for a piece of equipment to be issued in the field in the European theatre after it was produced in a US factory. Assuming normal 1944 logistic means after the Normandy landings.

 

The background of my question is that I am wondering if a M4 bayonet that was produced the US in September 1944 could have been in action here in Holland in October/November 1944. Or would it not have arrived in Europe until 1945?

[BOB K. RKSS]

I am not sure where to ask this question so I´ll try here first.

 

I was wondering how long it would have taken for a piece of equipment to be issued in the field in the European theatre after it was produced in a US factory. Assuming normal 1944 logistic means after the Normandy landings.

 

The background of my question is that I am wondering if a M4 bayonet that was produced the US in September 1944 could have been in action here in Holland in October/November 1944. Or would it not have arrived in Europe until 1945?

>>> I don't think anything (except a critical Red Ball item) could be issued in Europe with-in 2 months of manufacture. After an item is made: it must be Inspected, & Accepted by Government agent at factory; then packed, & shipped to an Army DEPOT in USA, & warehoused. Next it would be sent to sea port, & loaded on ships; (weeks at sea) then unloaded in Great Britian, & transported to a Field Depot, & warehoused there. Then it would be shipped to a Field Depot in occupied area of Europe, stockpiled there, & eventually issued to units in the field; as their requests (MRO's) came in. All takes time.

[pathfinder505]

Just mailing a letter to Holland wouldn't arrive that fast. Remember this is our government not FedEX

[Bob Hudson]

I've been trying to imagine what kind of circus it was just getting the convoy assembled, that in itself must have taken weeks. One site notes, "The downside to convoys were the delays involved: waiting to assemble; taking a common, but often longer route; reducing speed to match the slowest ship, and delays in unloading because of congestion. This cut cargo-carrying capacity by one-third."

 

I'll bet it was hard to get something from the factory to the troops in six months. I have notice that militaria dated 1945 is simply not as desirable as stuffr before then because there's almost no chance that anything dated 1945 could have actually been used during the war.

[kilian]

Thanks you for sharing your thoughts. I must say that I have never given much thought on the subject of the supply chain used back then. I am also quite critical that it would have been possible. Under piecetime conditions it would not have been possible, for sure, but there was a war going on and "everyone was doing their bit".

 

Of course I know of the convoy system. But I don´t know if after Normandy the UK was still used as a hub, or if the ships came directly from the US to Le Havre or Antwerp. I also don´t know how long it took to cross the Atlantic by summer/fall 1944. And how often the convoys sailed by then. But I have seen original footage of the thousands of trucks that ran bumper to bumper in a sort of round the clock conveyor belt system to bring supplies from the harbours in France to the frontline, after the Normandy landings.

 

Today´s cargo ships take about 5 days from NYC to Rotterdam. Of course faster ships, shorter routes and less U-boots. In a previous life I bought systems in the US and had them shipped to the company I used to work for in Holland. The manufacturer was in the North Eastern US. Total shipping time from door to door was two weeks and there was no aircraft involved and no special rush delivery.

 

I also don´t know if equipment could have been here faster if it was issued to fresh troops in the US who were send over for combat in Europe. I know for instance that the Timberwolves Division (104th Infantry) who fought the Battle of The Dykes in Holland arrived in Belgium, just across the border from Holland, in October 1944 without any combat experience. When were they issued their combat equipment? During basic training in the US, or when shipping for Europe, or in the UK? How long did it take these guys from shipment in NY to the front line?

 

I have not got a clue. But would appreciate your thoughts.

 

The Timberwolves badge is from a jacket discarded at a field hospital in Holland during the Battle of the Dykes in October/November 1944.

[ehrentitle]

As mentioned above highly unlikely. Here is a chart from The Quartermaster Corps, Organization, Supply, and Service, Vol I, Page 220 that illustrates this. Z/I is Zone of Interior AKA the US.

 

[Jeeper704]

The 104th Infantry Division landed in France on 7 September 1944 and moved into a defensive position in the vicinity of Wuustwezel, Belgium on 23 October 1944.

It was activated at Camp Adair, Oregon on 15 September 1942.

It started out overseas on 27 August 1944 via four ships, the USS Lejeune, the USS George Washington, the SS Ocean Mail, and the USAT Cristobal.

 

Erwin

[BOB K. RKSS]

Note on CONVOY: there are usually 4 types that travel through combat areas: 1st is FOOD, 2nd is AMMO, 3rd is POL (petroleum, oil, & lubricants, & 4th being General Supplies (weapons, uniforms, field equipment).

[kilian]

It took the 104th infantry 11 days to cross the Altlantic. Expecting cargo ships would need much longer, I did some further research into the trans Atlantic convoys. By September 1944 there was at least one convoy a week from NYC to Liverpool, taking 14 to 18 days for the crossing. Eg. convoy HX307, 73 ships, departed NYC on September 6th, arrived in Liverpool on September 20th 1944. Convoy HX308, 59 ships, departed September 13, arrived September 28th. They had a "conveyor belt" at sea as well.

[dustin]

logistics is an interesting topic! for example you have the department of the navy and have cognizant bureaus underneath,each with there own supply chain,organization of supply.bureau of ships, bureau of yards and docks, bureau of aeronautics etc..I am fanmiliar with the bureau of aeronautics they have thier own organization of supply,an item is packaged from the contractor/manufacturer then shipped directly to a supply depot for distribution then to naval aviation stations etc..Items are distributed based on a priority basis so depneding on an a particular item the turn around from production to actual issue could only be a few months and especially if items are issued before leaving stateside may only be 1 month so aviators/aircrew could have new items or upgarded equipment before enetring the combat zones where as units already in combat areas have to wait for the supply but in somes cases items are specifically requested ASAP by some units already alerted of the newly adopted or upgraded items and expidited to those requests.Items that leave supply depots stateside to lets say hawaii depots,these items could be stocked or issued to units awaiting departure aboard carriers etc..the bureau of aeronautics was very efficient in getting equipment o there personnel and on average 3months or less wait this mainly includes personal equipment as prioruty on parts fuel etc.. take precedence as usual.

[BOB K. RKSS]

Don't know about Navy, but Army (in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, & today) uses "RED BALL" for priority shipments. There is an Army EXPEDITING Officer stationed at each manufacturer; that ships authorized critical needed items STRAIT to the overseas Unit (bypassing the Depot in U.S.A.).

[gwb123]

Another chart for your contemplation.... from the US Government Printing Office publication Logistics in World War II: Final Report of the Army Service Forces

[gwb123]

And a closer look....

[kilian]

Thanks for sharing those charts. Does the report mention anything about the actual lead times involved?

 

My own best guess would be:

 

Total time in actual transit: 1 week in US + 3 weeks at sea + 1 week in Europe = 5 weeks

 

To that, the time in warehouses has to be added. That would have been depending on the actual priority of the item. As a minimum I would guess one week per depot, waiting for the next transport, which would be approximately at least 7 weeks total in stores.

 

This would give a total of three months minimum from factory to combat zone. For many items, time in warehouses would undoubtedly have been longer. On the other hand I would doubt that they were producing many items that were not needed within a reasonable time, as that would be a waste of materials in a war situation.

 

Based on this, my best guess would be that, on average, the time from factory to the combat zone in Europe would have been somewhere between 3 and 6 months, by late 1944. Meaning that 1944 production could have seen actual combat action in Europe and 1945 production probably not.

 

Could the M4 bayonet have seen action in Holland by September/October/November 1944? Based on the nature of the item, and considering production did not start until summer 1944, I consider this highly unlikely.

 

Thanks for participating in this exercise. Any further comments or thoughts would be welcome, of course.

[Brian Keith]

For the specific item in question, the M4 Carbine bayonet, this has been debated for a long time. As far as I have seen, NO photo's or other evidence, of M1 Carbines exist with the bayonet lug, let alone a fixed bayonet, during combat operations in the European Theatre during WW II. If I remember correctly, one has be identifyed in pretty early Occupation of Japan Photo's, some time in late '45, early '46. Remember, the carbine had to have the lug attached to existing carbines for the bayonet to fit. Most carbines didn't have a lug attached at the factory, it was an arsenal upgrade. Mostly done post war. In my opinion, a WW II combat soldier armed with the carbine would NOT have an M4 Carbine bayonet, but would probably have an M3 Knife. And the carbine would not have the bayonet lug. That is why the Type I and Type II barrel bands ars so hard to find and expensive (when you can find an original and not the very common fakes). Look on e-bay if you want some fakes.

M2 cents.

BKW

[kilian]

Thanks for contributing. In Bayo Points 16 , Gary Cunningham writes:

 

"Although quantity production of the M4 began during 1944, carbines fitted with the bayonet adapter did not reach combat troops until very late in the war. From available photographic evidence and veteran recollections, it appears very few, if any, bayonet-equipped carbines were used in combat operations in the European Theater. It is possible that some saw action on Okinawa, but if so, it was a small number.

 

However, the fact that the M4 saw little or no use as a bayonet in World War 2 does not mean that it was not used in combat zones during the war. Once production of the M3 knife ceased, the M4 became the substitute and was issued in place of the M3. So although the M4 saw little or no action as a bayonet, it was extensively issued and carried as a general-purpose belt knife."

[gwb123]

Thanks for sharing those charts. Does the report mention anything about the actual lead times involved?

 

My own best guess would be:

 

Total time in actual transit: 1 week in US + 3 weeks at sea + 1 week in Europe = 5 weeks

 

To that, the time in warehouses has to be added. That would have been depending on the actual priority of the item. As a minimum I would guess one week per depot, waiting for the next transport, which would be approximately at least 7 weeks total in stores.

 

This would give a total of three months minimum from factory to combat zone. For many items, time in warehouses would undoubtedly have been longer. On the other hand I would doubt that they were producing many items that were not needed within a reasonable time, as that would be a waste of materials in a war situation.

 

Based on this, my best guess would be that, on average, the time from factory to the combat zone in Europe would have been somewhere between 3 and 6 months, by late 1944. Meaning that 1944 production could have seen actual combat action in Europe and 1945 production probably not.

 

Could the M4 bayonet have seen action in Holland by September/October/November 1944? Based on the nature of the item, and considering production did not start until summer 1944, I consider this highly unlikely.

 

Thanks for participating in this exercise. Any further comments or thoughts would be welcome, of course.

 

I did a quick scan of this book looking for the same information you are asking about transit times. You have to keep in mind that this was a summary report written at the end of the war. As such, much of the information was generalized. I am afraid it did not include such specifics as shipping time from Peroria to Algiers.

 

Also, this chart was just a model of the flow. It was not specific to any particular theater or destination.

 

It did offer one tantalizing clue... there was mention in one of the appendixes that because of process improvements for items shipped through Western ports the transit time had been cut from 75 days to 65 days.

 

When talking about storage, keep in mind that stockage was not necessarily moved from one level of depot, to another, to another. Some streamlining was put into effect, as in shipments being taken directly to a theater level depot or supply activity. Larger or central depots were maintained for items that were needed, but ordered less often. Forward supply points were maintained for items that were more rapidly consumed, like ammunition and clothing items. This was the point of the Red Ball Express in Europe... to take bulk supplies straight from the docks and receiving points to as far forward as possible.

 

One thing this study did discuss were various schemes for keeping units supplied. Some items were automatically shipped just based on the size of the unit, their authorized equipment and mission. Food and rations would be an example of this. For these items, you had a pipeline effect. Once actually shipping began there would be a fairly constant flow and arrival rate, no matter the transit time. This apparently met with mixed success, and sometimes resulted in overstock at the receiving points.

 

I am sure that there is a history somewhere with more detailed information about transit times. If you are familiar with the official US Army History of WWII series, also known as "the green books", it might be worth looking at the volumes on Transportation and the Quartermaster Corpsl

[kilian]

As perhaps not everyone reads the edged weapons subforum as well:

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...showtopic=14496

 

Unless the photoshoot for the newspaper was taken in the US, there was at least one M4 bayonet in the field in Europe by 17 January 1945, about six months after production had started.