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Help with Unknown WWI patch


cthomas
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Here is a patch that has me stumped. Could it be a variant of the 39th division or Tank Corps SSI? I'm leaning towards 39th Div. He wears an Infantry collar disc. Name on back is to a Dominic Paquilla. It may be Paguilla but I doubt it. I have another shot of him in a wool overcoat and French style OS cap showing the same variant patch.

post-518-1192041183.jpg

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Here is a patch that has me stumped. Could it be a variant of the 39th division or Tank Corps SSI? I'm leaning towards 39th Div. He wears an Infantry collar disc. Name on back is to a Dominic Paquilla. It may be Paguilla but I doubt it. I have another shot of him in a wool overcoat and French style OS cap showing the same variant patch.

 

cthomas,

 

I've never seen that one before, but I'm on the case! Thanks for posting it!

 

Chris

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cthomas,

 

I've never seen that one before, but I'm on the case! Thanks for posting it!

 

Chris

 

 

You bet Chris. Thanks for helping me out. I look forward to your reply. In the meant time, let me post that other image I mentioned of Dominic in his M1917 overcoat and French style OS.

 

-Chuck

post-518-1192071822.jpg

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Aloha Chuck:

 

Just glancing at the collar disc in your first posted photo it sure does look like Coast Artillery insignia. Notice how high the crossed devices appear on the disc itself. This was how the early Coast Artillery EM Darken Bronze Type I Collar Discs were made to accomendate for Sea Coast Artillery Company numbers below the lower apex of the cannons. Take a loop to the photo and check out to see whether they are crossed cannons or crossed rifles. If I am correct about the collar disc being Coast Artillery in relation then I guess it would be safe to point out that the Shoulder Sleeve Insignia in the photo has all the characteristics of the 31st Artillery Brigade CAC insignia however the one authorized was three triangles of red, white and blue were within one another rather than layered types like the one in the photo. It wasn't until June 8, 1920 did the 31st Artillery Brigade CAC and its Regiment's 55th, 57th and 59th have all their insignia approved by the War Department. Just for information sake the 55th was only a red triangle, 57th was a dark blue triangle and the 59th was a white triangle. I suppose it would go without saying that it is possible that while the Brigade served in France during WWI the shoulder sleeve insignia in the photo could have been the forerunner of the Brigade's Headquarters Insignia. The Brigade's Regiments were armed with 155 GPF Tractor Drawn Cannons. Maybe this information would be more helpful in trying to find out what the patch might really be...

 

Mahalo,

 

John Patton "kaiaokalewa"

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Very astute observation by John and have to agree with his belief of it being a variation of the 55th which would usually be seen with all three colors depicted in the form of triangles inside oneanother. The only other infantry patch that uses the three colors,red,white and blue is a variation of the 3th div with a very different assembly of the colors than shown in the photos. Great job by John. Mort

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Charles,

 

I think that John's theory has quite a bit of merit. I tend to agree with him that this is a variation of the 31st Artillery Brigade. Can you tell from the photograph if the collar insignia is indeed Coast Artillery?

 

On the other hand if it is infantry, I am still at a loss. I am leaning toward one of the Zone of the Interior divisions/brigades/regiments that were forming in 1918, and did not serve overseas.

 

Chris

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John-

Let me be another person to thank you for your astute analysis. Very well done and very much appreciated!

 

Now for another twist....

 

They are not Artillery discs. I'm sorry about the poor scan I initially posted. Here is a more detailed one that shows the tell-tail crossed rifles for Infantry. Well, I'm not too sure if it will be that clear from a picture of a picture. I had to use my camera instead of the scanner because the image is printed on textured photo paper that gives off a strange reflection whenever I've tried to scan it.

 

I'm still leaning towards the 39th division as a strong possibility. If I may quote from the Morgan & Warren book on SSI's 1917-1919, it says of the 39th patch " the 39th never adopted an officially approved shoulder patch design, but several unofficial patches were worn." The 39th's patch, for all who are not familiar with it, had one large triangle with three smaller triangles (red, white & blue) adorning the center. It was usually found in applied & embroidered designs; the example shown here being applied construction.

 

Since the 39th was part of the AEF (this would account for our subject's OS chevron and the use of the French style OS cap as further proof he was 'Over There') and considering the overall triangular pattern of Paquilla's SSI, its colors (which most likely are red,white & blue), the applied construction technique of the patch and the fact that several unofficial designs were worn (as if this were wholly unique to the 39th) of such an insignia, has me believing it can be attributed to the 'Delta' division.

post-518-1192483449.jpg

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Aloha Chuck,

 

It was a good drill in exercising the possibilities and always fun to continue the search. Morgan and Warren were correct in stating that the unit never did get an shoulder sleeve insignia. BG Ira Haynes, Commanding Officer of the 64th FA Bde had made several attempts with the AEF HQ to have the patch that you discribed approved for wear while it was still in France. It was disapproved because no insignia would be approved for any unit under a Division. I suppose this happened because it was a Brigade Commanding Officer requesting the approval of the insignia and not the Division Commander which was BG H.C. Hodges. Another attempt was made by Haynes to get the insignia approved based on the fact most of the troops had already aquired the insignia and wore them with great pride and distinction. Again, Haynes attempt was all in vain and he failed to turn the original decision. Eventually, Hodges who was no longer assigned with the 39th was persuaded to request approval for the insignia but he to had been informed that the design would not be approved but would be kept on record status and reconsidered if the Division was to ever be activated again.

 

Maybe all the drama of not having an insignia approved was that when the Division did arrive it served as a replacement to Divisions already on the front. The 39th Division was basically stripped of their personnel and was in a constant replacement status. It did remain as one of the Depot Division for the AEF. The primary reason why Haynes was the driving force behind the insignia quest was that the 64th FA Bde and its original personnel remained intacted throughout its time in France.

 

Variations are know of the Haynes requested design along with two others; the first was representive of the Divisions baggage markings of a red 39 with white or khaki triangle bordered by a red triangle. The other design which might be a strong supporter of Chucks idea of the mystery patch being representive of the 39th Division is that a cockade of black, white and red on a khaki square. This design was a far departure of the original delta design idea but the mystery patch in the photo is not. Maybe that dark piece of felt in the photo is actually black and not blue. This is fun!

 

Does anyone know how to reseach the individual's background in the photo? It could solve the mystery about the patches identity.

 

John

 

John-

Let me be another person to thank you for your astute analysis. Very well done and very much appreciated!

 

Now for another twist....

 

They are not Artillery discs. I'm sorry about the poor scan I initially posted. Here is a more detailed one that shows the tell-tail crossed rifles for Infantry. Well, I'm not too sure if it will be that clear from a picture of a picture. I had to use my camera instead of the scanner because the image is printed on textured photo paper that gives off a strange reflection whenever I've tried to scan it.

 

I'm still leaning towards the 39th division as a strong possibility. If I may quote from the Morgan & Warren book on SSI's 1917-1919, it says of the 39th patch " the 39th never adopted an officially approved shoulder patch design, but several unofficial patches were worn." The 39th's patch, for all who are not familiar with it, had one large triangle with three smaller triangles (red, white & blue) adorning the center. It was usually found in applied & embroidered designs; the example shown here being applied construction.

 

Since the 39th was part of the AEF (this would account for our subject's OS chevron and the use of the French style OS cap as further proof he was 'Over There') and considering the overall triangular pattern of Paquilla's SSI, its colors (which most likely are red,white & blue), the applied construction technique of the patch and the fact that several unofficial designs were worn (as if this were wholly unique to the 39th) of such an insignia, has me believing it can be attributed to the 'Delta' division.

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Aloha Chuck,

 

It was a good drill in exercising the possibilities and always fun to continue the search. Morgan and Warren were correct in stating that the unit never did get an shoulder sleeve insignia. BG Ira Haynes, Commanding Officer of the 64th FA Bde had made several attempts with the AEF HQ to have the patch that you discribed approved for wear while it was still in France. It was disapproved because no insignia would be approved for any unit under a Division. I suppose this happened because it was a Brigade Commanding Officer requesting the approval of the insignia and not the Division Commander which was BG H.C. Hodges. Another attempt was made by Haynes to get the insignia approved based on the fact most of the troops had already aquired the insignia and wore them with great pride and distinction. Again, Haynes attempt was all in vain and he failed to turn the original decision. Eventually, Hodges who was no longer assigned with the 39th was persuaded to request approval for the insignia but he to had been informed that the design would not be approved but would be kept on record status and reconsidered if the Division was to ever be activated again.

 

Maybe all the drama of not having an insignia approved was that when the Division did arrive it served as a replacement to Divisions already on the front. The 39th Division was basically stripped of their personnel and was in a constant replacement status. It did remain as one of the Depot Division for the AEF. The primary reason why Haynes was the driving force behind the insignia quest was that the 64th FA Bde and its original personnel remained intacted throughout its time in France.

 

Variations are know of the Haynes requested design along with two others; the first was representive of the Divisions baggage markings of a red 39 with white or khaki triangle bordered by a red triangle. The other design which might be a strong supporter of Chucks idea of the mystery patch being representive of the 39th Division is that a cockade of black, white and red on a khaki square. This design was a far departure of the original delta design idea but the mystery patch in the photo is not. Maybe that dark piece of felt in the photo is actually black and not blue. This is fun!

 

Does anyone know how to reseach the individual's background in the photo? It could solve the mystery about the patches identity.

 

John

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Chuck,

 

Sorry I cannot help with finding the unit by tracing the soldier. However, just to add additional food for thought, the patch might be a 3rd Division patch. The 3rd ID had several different arrangements of red, white and blue segments, in addition to the standard three diagonal white stripes on the blue square. Just a thought.

 

Patch Johnson

Steve Johnson

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John in Hawaii-

 

"Hello" from Northern Minnesota! Thank you again for another detailed response.

 

 

Thank you Mort & Steve "Patch" Johnson for the suggestion of it being a possible 3rd Div variant. I must admit I never knew they considered such a pattern! I've always associated the 3rd with the blue backing/3 diagonal white stripes design that is still in use today. I have never had cause to think otherwise either. I've never encountered a reference to this "alternate" pattern in any research I've done, to include referencing the Morgan & Warren book (they make no mention of any alternate pattern ever being considered). Thanks for this juicy little tidbit.

 

I'm still in the 39th division camp though. There is a variant of their patch with the three smaller triangles inside the larger one & superimposed on a circular background. One of these triangles are supposed to be blue but the b&w image I've seen in the Morgan & Warren book, that blue triangle might as well be black.

 

Don't get me wrong guys, I'm strongly considering any possibilities!

 

Now, if someone could dig up his name on a roster somewhere or maybe stumble across a copy of his discharge papers....

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