some starange hand engraved Purple Hearts

[Garth Thompson]

Garth,

I'm probably the quickest pusher of the "fake button" I know. AND given the law of probability, one would guess that I should be 50-50 by now........NOT. I am more likely 2 standard deviations below the mean.

 

Which is a way of saying that I apologize for any offence I may have caused you. :blushing:

R,

It wasn't you I was refering to but thanks for the post.

G

[arclight]

Garth, I feel pretty bad about my comments, as well. Having only a few named PH's in my collection, these looked very different to me, and as they said in the movie "Spies Like Us," "...We mock what we don't understand." I know you have a superb reputation, and deservedly so. I apologize for any stones I cast in our glass house, and hope you will understand that I only seek to learn, not criticize, and my comments were never intended to malign, but rather to get those more knowledgable to help explain. I am very embarrassed.

Gary

[101world]

R,

It wasn't you I was refering to but thanks for the post.

G

 

 

To whom where you referring to Garth?

 

Well I for one am somewhat dismayed by the response on this,,,Garth comes in and says "they are mine" and automatically they are 100 percent legit

no reasons,,no explanations,,,just the mere fact he owns them are reasons enough that they are 100 percent correct.

 

So far Kurt has been the only one decent enough to actually try to educate anyone here,,,

I posted these hearts because they look "strange" to me,,,not necessarily "fake" just strange,,,there is a difference,,,,and, you have to admit I wasnt the only one to

to feel that way,,,,If they are immediately recognizable hands,,then why havent they sold?? I wouldnt want them in my collection because they look sloppy,,,,legitimate,,perhaps,,but sloppy nonetheless,,and that sloppiness raise concerns for re sale down the road,,, I dont know Garth or his "reputation" so maybe you could enlighten us a little on why or how they are legitimate pieces???

[jmpmstr]

Generally I would not bother to comment because this is not the place to argue. However, while this forum is a great place to get educated, I think this thread is has a tone that is becoming more common here than I think it should be. I have never considered questioning someone or something I am not expert in without contacting the thread owner or seller first...and then only after I have used the tools on this forum to answer my questions. I would say that there are too many not bothering to do the research before commenting. I am the farthest thing from an expert in PH engraving. Ask Allan H and some others here how many times I PM or email with questions about things here...that being said, it simply does not take an expert to go to the pinned section and look at 2 threads...there is one linking to the PH website Tom maintains, and Andy Lipps' thread on engraving with examples. There are plenty of examples to compare these and come to a conclusion. There are also enough examples that are legit and look like crap, both hand engraved and machine engraved....I saw enough to convince me on 2 of the 3 without needing an expert.

 

I only buy the best I can find, and while I do not buy on reputation alone, I most certainly use it as a barometer. There are members on this forum that I would buy from before someone I do not know because I do know them and/or I know their reputation; and they will fix it if they are incorrect. In this case, it happens to be someone who I trust and who is my friend, so yes, I was personally bothered by the change from vetting the medals to vetting the seller, but it is beyond this thread and these medals. These are threads designed to share information, these are not cross examinations, and that is what I am seeing a lot of lately, when the responses have clearly been made without any effort to find the answer. Could they have been bad...sure...but they are not, and if the tools are used on this site, Kurt doesn't have to analyze them for us.

[Garth Thompson]

To whom where you referring to Garth?

 

Well I for one am somewhat dismayed by the response on this,,,Garth comes in and says "they are mine" and automatically they are 100 percent legit

no reasons,,no explanations,,,just the mere fact he owns them are reasons enough that they are 100 percent correct.

 

So far Kurt has been the only one decent enough to actually try to educate anyone here,,,

I posted these hearts because they look "strange" to me,,,not necessarily "fake" just strange,,,there is a difference,,,,and, you have to admit I wasnt the only one to

to feel that way,,,,If they are immediately recognizable hands,,then why havent they sold?? I wouldnt want them in my collection because they look sloppy,,,,legitimate,,perhaps,,but sloppy nonetheless,,and that sloppiness raise concerns for re sale down the road,,, I dont know Garth or his "reputation" so maybe you could enlighten us a little on why or how they are legitimate pieces???

I was refering to the distrubing trend of "guilty until proven inoccent" on the forum sections I look at. If you notice the dates of the posting the first being on May 02 when it started with "looks fishy" progessing through " I could do a better job" until we got to "it came from the Webster, FL flea market". Seems like no one could wait to get on the fake bandwagon until Kurt says wait a minute and Vic & Scott add their thoughts. Then the backpedling began. I only noticed the post yesterday May 09 and appreciated the comments those guys made. I made my post to thank them. The post ran the course from three pieces of trash to one official WW2, one probable but a little sloppy and one WIA Vietnam official. The sad thing is once the "fake" , "fishey", "doesn't look right" flag is thrown down it doesn't make any difference if later the pieces are vindicated the taint of reproduction is still there.

All I'm saying is let's us just hesitate before we jump on the fake bandwagon, we just might be wrong.

Garth

[Dave]

I think the problem that we have here is this: a lot of education has gone on both here on the forum and elsewhere, and people have learned that there are fake pieces out there...and some of them are very good. That's GREAT on one hand...there are now fewer people out there who are willing to lay down their hard earned money on what are obvious fakes. So in that sense, we (and "we" being the community of collectors) have done a great job in educating ourselves in what's right and wrong.

 

The problem that has been created is we've made an environment (not just on this forum, but US-collecting wide) where a lot of people question things, much like the way TR collecting has become. Very few people look at say, a 101st Airborne Ike jacket, at first glance and say it's real. No, it's bad until it's proven good. Why? Because it's quite easy to churn them out...take a stripped Ike, toss on some vintage insignia...maybe a $150 investment and viola...a $500+ Ike jacket! Not a bad profit for a couple hour's work. Sad but true... At the same time, how many legit pieces don't fit into the "by the book" regulations and are dismissed (or at worse, parted out) because a collector believes that they're put together or fake? I know it happens A LOT. No one knows everything, and after 25 years of collecting US militaria, I can say that I still am learning and seeing new things all the time.

 

We've basically created a monster...but with both good and bad sides.

 

The solution to this problem is this (IMHO): If people don't know what they're talking about, they should keep their opinions to themselves. I'll admit up front that when someone asks about the legitimacy of a Purple Heart, I keep my mouth shut. We've got guys on this forum that are the no-kidding experts on Purple Hearts...in fact, I can't name any major PH collector who ISN'T a part of this forum (some are more quiet than others!) So I'll look at the thread, keep my opinions to myself, and chances are, within 24 to 48 hours, one of those experts will offer an expert opinion. And, based on their level of experience, I'll take that for gospel truth.

 

The problem is that there are plenty of people who DON'T have that same level of experience that are willing to offer opinions. That's not a bad thing in and of itself, as I love to see people growing in their knowledge of collecting and helping other collectors. However, sometimes it's the proverbial "blind leading the blind"...and those uneducated opinions can be damaging to both the younger (experience-wise) collector getting burned, the reputation of the owner of "X" item getting damaged, and the purveyor of the bad opinion looking like a jacka$$.

 

On a related note, I've also noticed plenty of people willing to completely discount an item because so-and-so said it was fake or bad in some other way. That's pretty easy to do when you're talking something that's fairly black and white...but I've seen several items that someone said, off-the-cuff that it was "fake" or they "don't like it" about an item that isn't black and white (like custom made uniform insignia). The opinion is great...but back it up with facts about why it's bad or why others should hesitate buying it. Several times, I've seen people later loudly proclaiming that "X" is fake because so-and-so said it was fake...but no explanation as to why. And then when challenged as to why, there's no rationale that can be stated other than "so-and-so" didn't like it. Here's the thing folks: If something is bad, fake, or whatever, there should be a rational explanation. If so-and-so the "expert" can't give the list of reasons why it's bad, then maybe...just maybe...it might be okay, but not something that the "expert" is familiar with. I've seen this happen several times in the last few months in the fakes area, and it is extremely frustrating to me...simply saying that something's a fake without having reasons to back it up doesn't help anyone...and, as I said above, it might not be fake, but it simply might not be something someone's familiar with or knows the entire history of.

 

None of us are perfect, but there are those of us who have studied this for the majority of our lives and have invested tens - if not hundreds - of thousands of dollars into their collections, and more importantly, their reference book collection. Everyone's learning, and it's great to see collectors help fellow collectors...but if folks aren't certain about things, they should caveat their opinion accordingly. What would have been appropriate responses in this thread would have been something like: "I'm not fond of that engraving because it looks really sloppy, but let's see what Kurt (or Tom, or Frank, or Vic, or Ed, or...) say about it before we pass judgment one way or the other.

 

My two cents...

 

Dave

[101world]

Dave,,

yes what you say is true,,folks calling something fake without attempting to say why,,,,,also the opposite is true calling something good,,,"because I said so and I know what I'm talking about"

 

Kurt and Tom are a few folks I know of that I will not question what they say,,nor do they need to explain themselves when they do,,mostly because they have been the very few

who take time to help me off the forum. and they explain why they make the observations they do,,in quite a few threads and posts,,,

 

I dont know Garht,,dont know of his reputation,,,thats why I was simply asking for more info about the hearts,,I simply posted them for discussion,,,nothing more,,,

I didnt say they were fake nor did I allude to that,,,so I'm not sure what this "tone" thing is,,, it was a simple question,,nothing more,,,

 

Also would like to thank Robbo for contributing,,,he helped explain things as well as Kurt,,,

 

And yes doing our own research is important,,,but even looking at Lips's site and Toms,,,I still had questions,,,,sorry I asked.

[Dave]

And yes doing our own research is important,,,but even looking at Lips's site and Toms,,,I still had questions,,,,sorry I asked.

 

No, don't be sorry you asked. Really. I'm referring more to the later posters who were quick to jump the gun...sometimes being the first to answer isn't always the best.

 

Dave

[Jack's Son]

Generally I would not bother to comment because this is not the place to argue. However, while this forum is a great place to get educated, I think this thread is has a tone that is becoming more common here than I think it should be. I have never considered questioning someone or something I am not expert in without contacting the thread owner or seller first...and then only after I have used the tools on this forum to answer my questions. I would say that there are too many not bothering to do the research before commenting. I am the farthest thing from an expert in PH engraving. Ask Allan H and some others here how many times I PM or email with questions about things here...that being said, it simply does not take an expert to go to the pinned section and look at 2 threads...there is one linking to the PH website Tom maintains, and Andy Lipps' thread on engraving with examples. There are plenty of examples to compare these and come to a conclusion. There are also enough examples that are legit and look like crap, both hand engraved and machine engraved....I saw enough to convince me on 2 of the 3 without needing an expert.

 

I only buy the best I can find, and while I do not buy on reputation alone, I most certainly use it as a barometer. There are members on this forum that I would buy from before someone I do not know because I do know them and/or I know their reputation; and they will fix it if they are incorrect. In this case, it happens to be someone who I trust and who is my friend, so yes, I was personally bothered by the change from vetting the medals to vetting the seller, but it is beyond this thread and these medals. These are threads designed to share information, these are not cross examinations, and that is what I am seeing a lot of lately, when the responses have clearly been made without any effort to find the answer. Could they have been bad...sure...but they are not, and if the tools are used on this site, Kurt doesn't have to analyze them for us.

Sal,

I like what you have to say, and the way you have stated it!! I have copied here again to help me keep your solid advice in mind....it goes very well with what Garth had to say!!.

[tom2001]

A few general comments:

 

1. Beware using terms like fake, fraud, fishy, and the like: Yea, there are people out there who intentionally try to fake up medals but ask yourself-- if you were gonna try to fake up a PH, would you really pick a name that was unresearchable? If I ever decided to become a faker, I'd be looking at 101st AB KIA lists, Pearl Harbor casualty lists, etc., etc., etc.

 

2. There really are officially engraved medals out there that are unresearchable: Whether it's common names, late WWI awards, replacement medals, or awards to WIAs, some are just research dead ends.

 

3. Don't assume a seller has done all the research: It really is OK for a seller to want to turn the medals quickly, without hiring a researcher to go through award cards or personnel files in St Louis, pay for an ancestry.com subscription, or the like.

 

Just my 2c

[Jack's Son]

No, don't be sorry you asked. Really. I'm referring more to the later posters who were quick to jump the gun...sometimes being the first to answer isn't always the best.

Dave

Dave,

Your first post was abundantly clear, and followed up well on Sal's thoughts.

I promise I won't be the "jacka$$", nor will I be first to post again!

[scottplen]

IMO the engravings seem good (but sloppy) I have had several Officially engraved Hearts that were very sloppy! I am no expert I just stated what i thought and what i found on each

name! I Don't think anyone was bad mouthing anybody just asking opinion on engraving! This is how we learn in this hobby and this forum has helped me with my PH collecting

I agree with Kurt the names are common and could be many WIA or KIA. I only know what i learned from Tom Vic and Ed And others on this forum!! I think no one should be sorry for posting photos of these and raising ?s that what this forum is for! So lets all get along and agree Damb it!! No just kidding what fun would that be???

anyhow keep the pics of hearts coming and lets all try to help each other !

And R we just keep agreeing with each other Whats up with that!!! :thumbsup:

[Jack's Son]

And R we just keep agreeing with each other Whats up with that!!! :thumbsup:

Scott...........this is getting scary!! :fear:

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

I agree with what Sal said above, especially the part about contacting a seller by PM - just common courtesy. I will also add that just because a certain hand or style is not readily recognized or isn't in someone's collection, that doesn't mean it can't or doesn't exist. IF someone says that they don't recognize that hand; it is no good, that is as good as saying that said person has seen EVERY single engraved medal in existence as comparison pieces - ridiculous huh? As collectors, we tend to think from a collector mentality where everything we see must fall into a neat little category that makes sense to our way of thinking about the way that something should appear. Twenty, fifty or a two hundred years ago, the manufacturers and engravers were not thinking about a slight deviation from the "norm" at that time as being potentially confusing to collectors...

 

It is easy to type out the first thing that pops into ones head without thinking. However, this is how rumor and unwarranted bad reputations get started. As far as "experts", that is a vulgar word to me. there is no such thing. We must learn to not always depend on others knowledge (as solid as it might be) or fall into the mindset that "well, member X says it is good, so that is all I need" - here or anywhere else. ALL of us are subject to making mistakes in our evaluations and to not study, learn and form your own opinion is not what being a true collector/historian is all about.