? ? POWDER MONKEY KNIFE ? ?

[arpc]

I bought this knife at a garage sale, home of a civil war collector.

 

I saw a similar knife that was thought to be some kind of "Powder Monkey" knife.

 

Steel blade is 7-7/8" - overall length is 12-7/16"

 

Handle has 5 steel pins through the wood

 

Blade is marked " W. Wilkinson - SHEFFIELD" (left side)

 

Blade is etched "N (shield) Y" (left side)

 

Handle is marked "US NAVY" (left side) - "1861" (right side)

 

see pictures below ..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

can you tell me anything about this?

 

 

Thank you in advance.

[ron norman]

Please find a copy from "The Best of U.S.MILITARY KNIVES"by Cole of a powder monkey's Knife note the knife is made from "non sparking materials"

Your knife is a tipical Soligen Knife with Patriotic Markings made for sale in the US Market in the Civil War or later period.

IMHO the US Navy marks were added later or may have been a private purchase by the Navy.

 

Ron Norman

[gunbarrel]

Please find a copy from "The Best of U.S.MILITARY KNIVES"by Cole of a powder monkey's Knife note the knife is made from "non sparking materials"

Your knife is a tipical Soligen Knife with Patriotic Markings made for sale in the US Market in the Civil War or later period.

IMHO the US Navy marks were added later or may have been a private purchase by the Navy.

 

Ron Norman

 

Ron,

 

Solingen knives were/are made in Germany. Arpc's knife was made in England by the same maker as my knife, which was authenticated by Frank Trzaska. For more details, click on the following link:

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...showtopic=91307

[arpc]

Hello Ron,

 

Yes, this knife is England made, like yours. And the "US NAVY" stamp is identicle to the stamp on your knife. I read your complete posts from last year (found it while searching for info on my knife) and that's how I found this forum. Was your knife's handle dated on the opposite side of the US NAVY stamp??

 

Also, how did you get Frank Trzaska to authenticate your knife? I'd like to do the same, expecially since my blade has more of the "Bowie" shape and the "N () Y" state markings.

[gunbarrel]

Hello Ron,

 

Yes, this knife is England made, like yours...

 

Arpc,

 

I think you meant to address your question to me (gunbarrel). Frank comes around from time to time.

[ron norman]

You are right, I ment to say Sheffild as in English Knife. The style of the knife is more like a meat cutter than a fighting knife type.

 

Ron Norman

[arpc]

Arpc,

 

I think you meant to address your question to me (gunbarrel). Frank comes around from time to time.

 

 

Yes, I'm sorry ... I meant to addess "gunbarrel".

 

I found Frank's email address and sent pictures to him directly. I'm curious to see what he has to say.

 

The Utility style blade is somewhat "Bowie" shaped and not "Spear-Point" like yours is.

 

Thanks

 

ARPC

[Darktrooper]

A Powder Monkey also known as a "Matross" is the young man (boy) that brought powder up from the magazines on ships to the gun crews, or on the field pieces (i.e. black powder cannons like napoleonic war/ 1812/ Rev war) from the caisson or powder box to the loader.

[Survival]

I can't comment on the authencity of both knifes but it seems to me that it would be a pretty easy to construct a fake. Find a period knife and stamp the handle.

[gunbarrel]

I can't comment on the authencity of both knifes but it seems to me that it would be a pretty easy to construct a fake. Find a period knife and stamp the handle.

 

Survival,

 

Seems to me that you just made a coment on the authenticity of both knives. Can I prove that what you said wasn't done? Of course not--you can't prove a negative! So, you have to use your head and wonder why would somebody go around looking for old W. Wilkinson - SHEFFIELD knives marking them U.S. Navy to sell them for a whopping $28, which is what I paid for mine. I mean, we are not talking about Randall knives here.

[arpc]

I can't comment on the authencity of both knifes but it seems to me that it would be a pretty easy to construct a fake. Find a period knife and stamp the handle.

 

Well Survival, you sure did comment ..., didn't you! :thumbdown:

 

I can't comment on the value of useless opinions of both knives but it seems to me that it would be pretty easy to construct a worthless criticism. Find a period knife and stamp being researched and throw a rock.

 

Oh wait, I guess I just did comment.

 

Why is it that when someone starts researching an unknown find, the first thing that's tossed into the mix is the word "FAKE"?

 

I'm in Wisconsin, and paid a whopping $7 for my knife. I suppose you might therefore surmise that since the "US NAVY" stamp seems to be identical on both knives, perhaps we've discovered a traveling Faker / Joker.

 

Nah, I think I'll wait for an informed opinion.

[Survival]

Just making the observation that something like this looks like it could be easily faked in my opinion. Not that your knifes are fake. However I know how you feel. You find something you just know is spectacular. Maybe you paid alot for it or maybe you got a bargain. Then someone throws a bucket of water on you and expresses some doubt on your find. Your first reaction is defense and anger. The Forum is a place where you show your finds and invite comment. I have some experience with Civil War collectables but not enought to say your knifes are fake. My comment was made in a polite manner and was not confrontational. Unlike your replies. But it is a true statement. You can't deny that. I get the impression from both of you that one reason you think your knifes are authentic is because you bought them at great prices. Obtaining a collectable at a great price does not make it authentic. That is also a true statement. Also the statement was made that the latter knife came from the collection of a "Civil War Collector" . Maybe not stated but implied that this is evidence of authenticity. Also not true. I think just about every collector has fakes in his collection. To remind one as a lesson learned, a reference to identify other samples as a fake, or as a hole filler in the collection. Anyway if all you are looking for is positive comments and reinforcement on your items state it in the heading. Once again I stand by my comments. I can't say for sure your knifes are fake or not. But they can be easily faked. I am familiar with Mr. Trzaska and respect his opinion. If he believes both knives are authentic I am truly happy for both of you. I am sorry if my comment hurt your feelings.

[Survival]

I wanted to add I believe the knives are antiques and could date anywhere from the Civil War to WW1. What I should have said was the knife stampings could be easily faked....

[gunbarrel]

Survival,

 

Hopefully this won't turn into a pi$$ing match, but since you included me on your long reply, I will answer.

 

1. You made an observation/comment after you said 'I can't comment on the authencity of both knifes but it seems to me...' I thought that was funny. Observations/comments like yours usually start something like that.

 

2. Please, do not patronize me. No, you don't know how I feel. You are not my buddy. You don't know me from Adam.

 

3. My first and last reaction was not defense and anger. It was/is annoyance. Although this is a public forum, non-value added comments are never welcome.

 

4. My reply was casual and light-hearted, but polite. You made a confrontational reply.

 

5. I really don't care what you think about what I think. See #2.

 

6. I do have fakes and repro in my collection. Most collectors do. However, I don't think this is one. Please, see #5.

 

7. I do not have to format my posts to the way you think ("if all you are looking for is positive comments and reinforcement on your items state it in the heading..."). I abide by the rules of the Forum; not "Survival's rules." You are just a member in this Forum, just like me. But, in answer to the question you post ("if all you are looking for is positive comments and reinforcement..."); I can't speak for arpc, but as for me, I'm looking for constructive comments; not approval from you.

 

8. You didn't hurt my feelings; you annoyed me and escalated the level of annoyment with your last comment.

 

This is my last comment. I will now alert the Admin & Mod to this post. They may delete some of our comments, all of our comments, or leave them to see how the topic develops. I will support them 100% in whatever they decide.

[arpc]

Thank you gunbarrel. You said things much better than I could have.

 

arpc - "can you tell me anything about this?"

 

My original posting and question about my newly acquired knife was simple, and I really appreciate all your help.

 

As to Survivals' comments, they did nothing more than annoy me also. I get very annoyed when people have a burning desire to comment, about something that they know absolutely nothing about.

 

Survival - "What I should have said was the knife stampings could be easily faked."

What you should have said was "NO", you can't tell me anything about this.

 

arpc

[Survival]

I don't see any reason any comments should be deleted or censored from this thread. Lets leave it all up for discussion. I'll take any lumps the forum members send my way without getting into a P%$#^& match. Maybe we can get some more info on the knives and all become educated.....

[Bob Hudson]

Also, how did you get Frank Trzaska to authenticate your knife? I'd like to do the same, expecially since my blade has more of the "Bowie" shape and the "N () Y" state markings.

 

Frank is a member of this forum and regularly comments on knives posted here.

[Bob Hudson]

The N-SHIELD-Y appears to be a hallmark rather than a unit marking. My own guess is that it is in early mark from NS Meyer of New York, which started business as a military equipment/insignia supplier in 1889.

 

Howver, once source said the mark as from "Alexander-Sheffield" and English maker.

 

"Believed to be an Alexander-Sheffield double-edged belt knife with scabbard. Their logo is an "N" and "Y" flanking a US shield or chevron (see images); this logo or trademark is stamped into the center of the guard on both sides. No markings on the blade. This logo was apparently a very clever marketing ploy by this Sheffield maker to capture the attention of American buyers; the "large letters “N Y” separated with a design of an American stars and stripes shield…clearly indicating the state of NEW YORK and obviously designed to capture the fascination of American buyers of the era…most likely Civil War soldiers from that state (and continues to capture the imagination of the modern-day collector to believe that it was an official purchase by the state of New York for its troops!)." - source Flayderman's (flayderman.com).

Alexander of Sheffield was in business from 1850 to 1876, so this knife very likely saw American Civil War usage; worst case, it may have been here during the period of the "Old West."

 

Of course up to the Civil Era, most "Bowie" knives sold in the US were made in Sheffield so American buyers certainly had no problems buying knives made in the UK, so I find the "designed to capture the fascination of American buyers" argument a little suspect. The Sheffield makers did decorate Bowie blades, but we are seeing this N-SHIELD-Y mark on some rather utilitarian blades.

 

Here are two different knives which carry that mark:

 

 

 

 

Now the US Navy knives with this mark also have the Wilkinson maker mark so that makes we wonder about the Alexander-Sheffield story.

 

NS Meyer hallmarks have always made use of a shield and their New York location, and they did import and rebrand swords and other items from Europe. But the only definitive hallmark info I can find goes back to the 1930's, but that N-SHIELD-Y mark very much made me think first of Meyer.

 

 

Now my Meyer theory may be BS, but I do think this is a maker's mark and the the Navy knives with it are legitimate 19th century pieces.

Oh - and for all sides: make nice or I will do some deleting and issue formal warnings.

[Bob Hudson]

I found another with the N-SHIELD-Y mark and with Alexander-Sheffield on the ricasso. Makes me think even more that the N-SHIELD-Y mark is for the importer/seller rather than the maker.

 

[arpc]

I found another with the N-SHIELD-Y mark and with Alexander-Sheffield on the ricasso. Makes me think even more that the N-SHIELD-Y mark is for the importer/seller rather than the maker.

 

Thank you so very much for the information. I will keep it as reference material for my knife.

 

My knife also came with an old leather sheath with hand stitching around the edge. I thought to show it for interested readers of this forum.

 

 

I also tried to take a detailed "macro" photo of the etching for reference. The letters N & Y have "solid lines" within, and the Shield has 6 stripes and 5 stars. Perhaps such details may relate to specific importers / sellers in the use of this marking.

 

Are your knives so marked, or are the lines with-in "dotted" and the shield with only 5 stripes and only 4 stars?

 

 

Thanks again for all your help in determining what I have. Perhaps others will chime in with more info on the US NAVY marking and 1861 date on the handle of my knife. To my eye, based on other marked collectibles, its a very old stamping.

 

Oh .... and I'm always willing to "make nice".

 

sincerely,

arpc

[gunbarrel]

Admin,

 

Excellent info. Thank you!

[Bob Hudson]

Admin,

 

Excellent info. Thank you!

 

Now all we need is the actual story behind this mark