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M1911 Patton Sword


pony soldier

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Haggling/bargaining or not, if Gunderson had a cart system on his site I would be in a lot of trouble. I sent an email re terms at one point and never got a return, probably filtered as spam but I often consider just calling to find out how it goes as far as terms.

 

I sit on my hands a lot when browsing J&J

 

Cheers

 

GC

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Haggling/bargaining or not, if Gunderson had a cart system on his site I would be in a lot of trouble. I sent an email re terms at one point and never got a return, probably filtered as spam but I often consider just calling to find out how it goes as far as terms.

 

I sit on my hands a lot when browsing J&J

 

Cheers

 

GC

 

 

I’ve dealt with Gunderson several times and even placed more pricey items on lay-a-way I frequent J&J a lot and he's had some nice items that I came close to scrambling on my keyboard but didn't. Being unemployed ay 59 has slowed my major purchases down have to be happy with what I have at the moment. I guess the closest I’ll come to a M1911 is checking Hayes’ out on visits.

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Hi all,

 

I have quite a few pictures of the swords. They are numbered I2I and I77. The reason I wrote the numbers that way is that one sword is SN 2 and the other is SN 77. The stamping, if you look closely at it is not a 1 but rather an I or a lower case L "l". I have had these for 20 years and did a little research at Springfield Armory and found that they made a total 79 of them, thus the SN's make sense. The one that J&J has following this rationale would be number 28. I have numbers 2 and 77. Number 2 has no grip wire, while 77 does. Also each has the washer with stampings to the 10th Cavalry where they were field tested. I had thought these were experimental Patton Sabers, but found that in the nomenclature they are referred to as the 1911 Cavalry Board Saber.

 

I haven't posted a picture here before, and from how it looks, I get 150K per message, so the next 10 messages are good pictures of my swords for you all to ooh and aah over.

 

As it seems a bit over the top to have two of these, if there is anyone out there who needs one, let me know. I'd love to hear from you.

 

K

post-53877-1329615474.jpg

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Here's another picture l77 is on the left. And by the way, as you will see they have gret blades also (hint I saved that picture for last).

post-53877-1329616520.jpg

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Here is a cool picture of the leather washer for sword l2l that shows the 10th Cavalry marking on the side with the SA and the 1911.

post-53877-1329617133.jpg

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And finally, the last picture. (whew that was a lot of effort)

 

While I have heard the term "the twins" used in reference to a good or otherwise noteworthy rack, I think the use of the term "The Twins" here would be appropriate.

 

Enjoy, and if you have any questions, please let me know.

post-53877-1329617722.jpg

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What a great thread. You all make me want to join your fraternity, but I'm afraid that they are kind of like potato chips. So, I'll just sit back and admire your fantastic blades :thumbsup:

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Spectacular! You’re a very lucky guy and thank you very much for posting the great pics. Do you mind me asking how long you’ve had them and did you acquire them together?

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Spectacular! You’re a very lucky guy and thank you very much for posting the great pics. Do you mind me asking how long you’ve had them and did you acquire them together?

 

Hi and thanks for the compliment. I have had these for 25 years and they were purchased together. They turned up right on the wall of someones den. I was there looking at other militaria when I spied these. They were hanging in the configuration just like is shown in the first picture as above. I kept them because they were made at Springfield Armory, but didn't know how rare they were until I asked around about them.

 

The few experts I spoke to wouldn't tell me much about them and offered me double the price of a Patton Saber per piece which at that time (early 1990's) was about $500 ea. I felt like they were trying to hoodwink me, so I kept them and later did some research and found out that they were indeed rare. I only saw one other come up for sale, years ago, and since I didn't have much into them, I have kept them in my collection for all these years. On the wall, they look great (like a giant 1902 Cavalry Collar Insignia) and the stuff I have turned up personally always holds a spot near to my heart in my collection!

 

I'm glad someone thinks these are as cool as I do!

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They are numbered I2I and I77. The reason I wrote the numbers that way is that one sword is SN 2 and the other is SN 77. The stamping, if you look closely at it is not a 1 but rather an I or a lower case L "l".

 

The "l" is a "1". This font was carried over to the M1913 sabers. So your serial numbers are 121 and 177.

 

And those are some gorgeous M1911 Experimentals!

 

[Edited because I can't spell "1911"...]

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Al:

 

Thank you very much for posting the great photos of your "two 1911's". What a great treat to check in today and find these new members to the club. This is exactly what collecting means to me. The finding and sharing of all of the multitude of items we as a group collect. The locating and restoring to the fraternity of two more survivors of a century ago production. This serves to preserve vital data on a scarce issue. Just in this thread alone has been recorded 7 numbers of a 79 unit production. 114, 117, 120, 121, 125, 128 and 177. In my studies I have located 23 of the 79 which suggest time may reveal eventually 35-40 of the group. Seemingly a strange high survivor rate for such a low amount manufactured. Makes one wonder that after troop testing of the M1911 how they were collected an stored. If my original premise at the start of this thread is valid, then the last number made will be 178. Any one of them constitiute what I call a "rara avis". What is really amazing is that just a few years ago, none of this would have been possible. Now thanks to the Forum and Internet we can do this.

 

I noted that you are in New Jersey. By chance did you purchase these in NJ? When you acquired them was the previous owner able to convey any information on where got them or their history??

 

To a question: On the picture of the SN121 showing the 10th cav. markings, can you show a better picture or detail of the marking. The reason, in the 1913 issue of "The Rasp", a yearbook put out by the Cavalry Assn. there are pictures of troops modeling the M1912 experimental cavalry equipment such as the M1903 rifle carrier and boot and the M1911 saber. The info in the article indicates the troops were members of Troop D of the 11th cavalry. 79 sabers would be just enough to arm one troop and that is about what the picture shows.

 

Lastly it appears you have an interest in weapons made by Springfield Armory. By chance would you have any M1913 Patton sabers. If so, would you share the year and serial number. Also as you note, you have two 1911's and there exists a remote chance my arm could be completly twisted out of shape!!!!

 

Thanks again for sharing this great treasure.

 

Pony Soldier

Ken Andrews

lbh62576@frontier.com

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To a question: On the picture of the SN121 showing the 10th cav. markings, can you show a better picture or detail of the marking. The reason, in the 1913 issue of "The Rasp", a yearbook put out by the Cavalry Assn. there are pictures of troops modeling the M1912 experimental cavalry equipment such as the M1903 rifle carrier and boot and the M1911 saber. The info in the article indicates the troops were members of Troop D of the 11th cavalry. 79 sabers would be just enough to arm one troop and that is about what the picture shows.

 

I also thought the 10th Cav marking was curious. Aside from the article in the Rasp, I have two period images of the saber being carried...by white troopers.

 

 

90803b.jpg

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Al:

 

Thank you very much for posting the great photos of your "two 1911's". What a great treat to check in today and find these new members to the club. This is exactly what collecting means to me. The finding and sharing of all of the multitude of items we as a group collect. The locating and restoring to the fraternity of two more survivors of a century ago production. This serves to preserve vital data on a scarce issue. Just in this thread alone has been recorded 7 numbers of a 79 unit production. 114, 117, 120, 121, 125, 128 and 177. In my studies I have located 23 of the 79 which suggest time may reveal eventually 35-40 of the group. Seemingly a strange high survivor rate for such a low amount manufactured. Makes one wonder that after troop testing of the M1911 how they were collected an stored. If my original premise at the start of this thread is valid, then the last number made will be 178. Any one of them constitiute what I call a "rara avis". What is really amazing is that just a few years ago, none of this would have been possible. Now thanks to the Forum and Internet we can do this.

 

I noted that you are in New Jersey. By chance did you purchase these in NJ? When you acquired them was the previous owner able to convey any information on where got them or their history??

 

To a question: On the picture of the SN121 showing the 10th cav. markings, can you show a better picture or detail of the marking. The reason, in the 1913 issue of "The Rasp", a yearbook put out by the Cavalry Assn. there are pictures of troops modeling the M1912 experimental cavalry equipment such as the M1903 rifle carrier and boot and the M1911 saber. The info in the article indicates the troops were members of Troop D of the 11th cavalry. 79 sabers would be just enough to arm one troop and that is about what the picture shows.

 

Lastly it appears you have an interest in weapons made by Springfield Armory. By chance would you have any M1913 Patton sabers. If so, would you share the year and serial number. Also as you note, you have two 1911's and there exists a remote chance my arm could be completly twisted out of shape!!!!

 

Thanks again for sharing this great treasure.

 

Pony Soldier

Ken Andrews

lbh62576@frontier.com

 

Hi Ken,

 

I am uploading, with this thread, a picture of the markings. Looking at it, live and in person, I could see the 10 clearly, but looking at the picture, I see a 10, an 11, and even a 44. With the jumble of numbers, it looks like it may have been issued more than once. I hope the picture helps.

 

I am from Southern New Jersey and the swords were purchased here. The fellow I bought the swords from bought them with his father at W Stokes Kirk in the 1930's. There are a lot of great items that turned up in South Jersey from collectors who went to W Stokes Kirk up in Philadelphia to buy surplus. While they do not have the name recognition of Bannerman's in New York, they handled tons of surplus which is why South Jersey was such a trove of great militaria.

 

As for a 1913 SA Patton Saber, sadly I do not have one. I have one made by LF&C in 1918.

 

I do appreciate the fact that we can transmit information to one another about great and rare militaria. There is information out there, but there is also an equal quantity of misinformation. I collect things to preserve them, and we should all share knowlegde on what we collect because it enriches our community of collectors.

 

If you have any other questions or things you would like to see, please let me know.

 

Thanks for reaching out to me.

post-53877-1329696331.jpg

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I also thought the 10th Cav marking was curious. Aside from the article in the Rasp, I have two period images of the saber being carried...by white troopers.

90803b.jpg

 

 

This has been a fantastic thread and Al I hope you'll frequent here often and I know you have for sure excited some with your outstanding photos. I really like Varangian's photo of the mounted troop it is one of the only photos I've seen with the M1912 experimental pack/ration bags in mounted use it's a great picture thanks for posting it. There are some who think the pack/ration bags were never used by the cavalry and only by the medical corps but I guess that's another topic! :think:

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I really like Varangian's photo of the mounted troop it is one of the only photos I've seen with the M1912 experimental pack/ration bags in mounted use it's a great picture thanks for posting it. There are some who think the pack/ration bags were never used by the cavalry and only by the medical corps but I guess that's another topic! :think:

 

the pic is from a member of the Experimental Cavalry Squadron at Ft. Huachuca that Ken mentioned. It was composed mostly of men from the 5th Cavalry and commanded by a Captain from the 11th, and was formed to test new riding techniques, Cavalry tactics, and the new equipments proposed by the Cavalry Board. So this trooper's use of the pack bags was during experimental trials and not "issued for use".

 

What pieces and parts were accepted for general issue, no idea. Not my area, except as it touches on sabers. Just didn't want you to use this photo as evidence in a discussion and get zinged if someone pointed out its context...

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Sean:

 

Thanks for posting the photo of the sergeant with the M1911. I was intriqued by the comments you made reference the man being a member of the 5th cav. and commanded by a captain in the 11th. Per my earlier comment, according to the Rasp article the M1911's were issued to troop D of the 11th cavalry for testing. (interesting 11 to 11, maybe something there). I have the photo of the same man in blue crynotype (can't spell it?)

On the photo is a white note stating the man was Sgt.Flynn, if I remember the name right, don't have the photo to hand tonite and he was attached to the 15th cavalry. May be some truth there as the photo clearly shows a sgt's stripes. Also from the construction of the building in back of the man the heavy masonry blocks and overall quality of the structure suggest it is not in Arizona, more likely back east. At any rate I sent good copies of it to Dusan and Ken Hughes in England for their use.

 

Back to your comments, I have never seen anything on the group or the testing they were engaged in. Can you tell me where the data was found. I am also most intersted in the M1912 exp.l cav. equipment, most of which failed in the field tests and was not adopted.

 

Pony Soldier

Ken

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Ken;

 

Sorry for the delay, but the silliness over the Koran burning had gotten out of control...

 

I received the scan from a correspondent on a (now sadly defunct) Cavalry history forum, with a note that this was a trooper from the experimental unit, and my understanding was that the unit conducting trials for equipment and tactics recommended by the Cavalry Board was located at Ft. Huachuca, from the issue of the Rasp that you mentioned. The scan did not include the note you mention.

 

So I brought up the issue of the Rasp in question, which I luckily had in pdf on my computer, and in the back are letters describing the progress of the experimental unit at Huachuca. No mention of sabers, though. And, as you described, in the pictures section are images of D Troop, 11th Cavalry, sporting the new gear including the sabers. So it appears I was confused on that point. It also mentions that B Troop was also issued the gear.

 

11th Cavalry was, at that specific time, stationed at Ft. Ogelthorpe and the background of the images in the Rasp certainly look like Ogelthorpe. The image I posted above does not. Ogelthorpe, like most of the eastern posts, was brick and wood. The limestone blocks are typical of western posts, like Sam Houston, Sill, Leavenworth, the Presidio, and Riley. It particularly resembles the buildings in the Quadrangle at Sam Houston, but could also easily be a building at any of the above posts. Little of the original post of Huachuca exists, but I remember most of them as being stucco over some type of masonry.

 

Looking through my (incomplete) unit histories, it looks like the 11th was at Ft. Sam Houston for most of 1911 before returning to Ogelthorpe, the 15th (or at least parts of it) were at Leavenworth in 1912, and the Cavalry School (and Equipment Board) was at Riley...lots of possible locations for that photo.

 

I think a lot of this might be clarified in the 1911 and 1912 General Orders, and Volume 22 of the Cavalry Journal. I have been unable to locate copies of them, but plan on scouring the military museums at Fort Hood and Camp Mabry when I return....

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