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Custer's Last Fight


rufus_firefly
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RustyCanteen

Well, unless I missed it..

 

It is refreshing that no one blamed the 1873 "Springfield" carbines or the .45-55-405 cartridges.

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RustyCanteen
That's just 'cause everybody already knows about that. Do go on. :)

 

Just that almost every discussion of the Little Big Horn battle of July 1876 has someone laying partial blame for Custer's defeat on the performance of the weapons used. In this case the Model 1873 Springfield carbines caliber .45, for those unfamiliar with the design it was the fourth design of breech loading rifles since 1865 when the Civil War ended, starting with the first and second "Allin" conversions of the M1863 Springfield muskets.

 

The carbines (and rifles) featured a hinged breech block near the rear of the barrel, in today's collector world it's known as a "trapdoor". A cartridge would be inserted into the breech of the barrel, the block lowered and allowed to lock closed and the carbine fired. The early ammunition was different than a post 1880's cartridge in that the case was not made of brass but of copper, copper is considerably softer than brass. There were also two different rounds of .45 cal. ammo then, that for rifles and that for carbines. The rifle load used a heavier bullet while the carbine load used a lighter bullet, etc.

 

Some have long (perhaps as early as 1876-1877?) believed that they may faced problems reloading their carbines during the battle, there were reports ( I think of Keogh? even) struggling to extract empty cases stuck in the chambers. This was believed to have lowered the effectiveness for defense, and it was supposed that the copper cases had become stuck and that the extractor's were ripping the rims off (if you didn't have a rod to knock the case out it could be difficult to remove, and guess what? Carbines were not issued rods until 1877).

 

I don't think it made much of a difference either way, and I don't think having brought gatlings would have changed the outcome, more than likely Custer would not have had them with him, but with Benteen or Reno instead. But that's all debatable.

 

Tried to keep it short, but it's still pretty long!

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rufus_firefly

According to this web page, which I recommend to anyone interested in the weapons used at the BLBH, the difference between the rifle round and the carbine round was the amount of black powder. It concludes that extractor problems were less than .35% of some 1751 cases tested. Also, a video on the

. Notice how the casing pops out.
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RustyCanteen
According to this web page, which I recommend to anyone interested in the weapons used at the BLBH, the difference between the rifle round and the carbine round was the amount of black powder. It concludes that extractor problems were less than .35% of some 1751 cases tested. Also, a video on the
. Notice how the casing pops out.

 

Yeah, I think that any effect would be very small.

 

The carbine loads were copper case, benet (internal primer) primed .45-55-405 and the rifle was .45-70-500. About the only real weakness in the copper cased benet primed stuff were the two deep crimps used to hold the primer in place, it might be possible for a case to tear along the crimp, although I doubt it would occur in normal use. Though the powder does cause fouling, and it's possible that with enough rounds it might start getting hard to extract. Of course we don't actually know how much of their ammo they managed to fire.

 

So it was also a difference in bullet weight, in this case the carbine used a .405 grain bullet and the rifle a .500 grain bullet.

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Also, some,(all?), of the troopers carried their 45-70 cartridges in leather belts. As we all know, leather plus copper creates verdigris. Which in field conditions would not take long to form. That also could create problems with extraction in the carbines.

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Kurt Barickman

My parents bought that Budweiser print in a hand carved frame from an antique dealer going out of business in Fairmont MN in 1970. That thing hung in my bedroom when I was the ripe old age of 9. It was too much for me to handle and for a few years my parents had to hang a white bedsheet over it so I could go to sleep; too much blood and gore for my sensitive eyes. When my parents downsized in 1998, it sold at auction for $500 which was too cheap. :thumbdown:

 

Kurt Barickman

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rufus_firefly

Kurt,

 

Do you recall what was paid in 1970 for your print? I have tried over the years to get an idea what mine might be worth, for insurance not for profit. I have looked several times on eBay but find I often am comparing apples to oranges. I have seen 2 other copies of this, one in an antique shop and the other at a militaria show. The first looked like it had been varnished at some point, it was very dark, and the 2nd was in need of serious restoration because of water damage. I have had one serious offer to buy mine but, like the credit card commercial, family memories - priceless. The frame on this copy is the original, but my mother, God bless her, decided it should be black instead of brown. Someday, if I can find someone I trust, I would like to have some restoration done both on the frame and on the picture itself.

 

Looking at this picture I am reminded of Bill Cosby's comedy routine about the coin toss between Capt Custer and Capt Sitting Bull. Capt Custer loses the coin toss and "...all the Indians in the world ride down on top of you." I wonder if Cosby got the idea from this picture.

 

Don

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Kurt Barickman
Kurt,

 

Do you recall what was paid in 1970 for your print? I have tried over the years to get an idea what mine might be worth, for insurance not for profit. I have looked several times on eBay but find I often am comparing apples to oranges. I have seen 2 other copies of this, one in an antique shop and the other at a militaria show. The first looked like it had been varnished at some point, it was very dark, and the 2nd was in need of serious restoration because of water damage. I have had one serious offer to buy mine but, like the credit card commercial, family memories - priceless. The frame on this copy is the original, but my mother, God bless her, decided it should be black instead of brown. Someday, if I can find someone I trust, I would like to have some restoration done both on the frame and on the picture itself.

 

Looking at this picture I am reminded of Bill Cosby's comedy routine about the coin toss between Capt Custer and Capt Sitting Bull. Capt Custer loses the coin toss and "...all the Indians in the world ride down on top of you." I wonder if Cosby got the idea from this picture.

 

Don

 

 

Don,

 

My parents paid $35 for it in 1970.

 

Kurt

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  • 1 year later...

I just left the battlefield yesterday. Spent the last four days doing research and listening to people from all over the county speak about the battle. One thing for sure, there are lots of opinions out there and no shortage of people who will argue about them.

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rufus_firefly
I just left the battlefield yesterday. Spent the last four days doing research and listening to people from all over the county speak about the battle. One thing for sure, there are lots of opinions out there and no shortage of people who will argue about them.

 

 

Wish I could have been there.

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Im so jealous of you fellas,being able to visit Little Big Horn.

It must be the Seminole blood in my veins but i have always wanted to visit there.The closest i can get is by reading my copy of Dee Browns book "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" and seeing your wonderful photos.Thank You

Mick

 

A friend brought this back for me in 2001

 

post-69117-1340692556.jpg

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