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What is this WWI patch


jagjetta
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Greetings,

Recently acquired this image but can't make out what the patch is on his left sleeve. Location seems odd...maybe it is just a "patch" for a hole!

 

Will welcome any help identifying.

 

Treat em rough!

 

JAG

post-949-1299806658.jpg

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kyhistorian01

It actually looks like the 5th Division's diamond patch, although you are right in that it is an odd place on the sleeve.

 

Robert

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BigJohn#3RD
5th ID??

 

Awfully low on the sleeve, but??

Yep it looks like a 5th Division Diamond to me as well. In WWI the Divisions were not designated as infantry, armor etc. Just Number and division. I believe that it was in the 30s that the divisions were designated as Armored, Infantry, Airborne, etc.

Regards

John

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5th Division makes perfect sense...and leaves me blushing just a little bit! The low placement caused me to overlook the obvious and shoot right for the obscure and unexplained. Color me red! :blush:

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Bonjour.

 

In my opinion, this is not a patch of the 5th ID. We can see a collar "USNG" :think: . 5th ID was not part of the "NG".

 

regards solcarlus.

 

 

 

post-241-1299830731.jpg

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I agree. The patch looks like it is placed on the sleeve as a square and not as a diamond. Collar disc looks like Signal Corps.

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I agree. The patch looks like it is placed on the sleeve as a square and not as a diamond. Collar disc looks like Signal Corps.

 

 

Tried to grab the discs and enhance but results were not that great.

post-949-1299869188.jpg

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Yep it looks like a 5th Division Diamond to me as well. In WWI the Divisions were not designated as infantry, armor etc. Just Number and division. I believe that it was in the 30s that the divisions were designated as Armored, Infantry, Airborne, etc.

Regards

John

 

There were no other types of divisions in WWI other than infantry divisions, so there was no need to differentiate. The first armored divisions were formed in 1940, the first airborne in 1942 and most infantry divisions were not designated as such until the middle of WWII. The only exceptions to all this were the cavalry divisions, which were always designated as such starting with the 15th in 1917.

 

The patch in the photo just looks like a square piece of fabric to me. Probably covering up a hole.

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  • 1 year later...
world war I nerd

Jag,

 

 

First let me apologize for an unusually long reply to your question. I’m probably just confusing the issue, but here is my opinion along with some evidence to back it up.

 

 

It is possible that the patch is a red, three inch square, which was worn by the 3rd Battalion, 9th Infantry, 2nd Division during the St. Mihiel offensive between 12 and 15 September, 1918, and at Blanc Mont, and “perhaps later.”

 

 

At that time the 2nd Division was experimenting with the style of British ‘Battle Blazes’, or shoulder insignia which their army had been using since late 1915 – early 1916, as a way of obtaining identification of the various units in the noise and uncertainty of combat.

 

 

Apparently, On 4 September 1918, during the planning for the reduction of the St. Mihiel salient it was decided and noted in a memo by Colonel George W. Stuart CO of the 9th Infantry Regiment that all three of its infantry battalions would wear British style battle blazes three inches below the shoulder on both sleeves of the service coat as follows,

 

 

“Third Battalion (first over): Three inch red square

 

Second Battalion (second over): Three inch blue square

 

First Battalion (third over): Three inch white square

 

Headquarters Company: Red triangle

 

Regular Headquarters and staff: Three inch red and white square (cut diagonally, lower left to upper right, red over white)

 

Machine Gun Company: Red Circle”

 

 

Memo from HQ, 3rd Brigade, September 6, 1918

 

 

With this in mind an officer was immediately sent to Toul to purchase cloth but no blue cloth could be found so the 2nd Battalion did not wear any insignia. The officers of the 1st Battalion were concerned that the three inch white insignia would draw fire, so they choose to wear a smaller one inch square instead and placed it to the rear on only the left shoulder. It was also reported that other like minded Doughboy’s from the 1st and 3rd Battalions opted to smear the red and blue squares that they wore with mud or to cut the center out of them before ‘going over’ in an attempt to reduce their visibility. The insignia was sewn on by the regimental tailors on 4 September and were used at St. Mihiel, Blanc Mont and according to Lieutenant Steele, “perhaps later.”

 

 

At the conclusion of the St. Mihiel engagement, it became clear that the colored insignia hadn’t really draw any enemy fire at all. The many benefits of the new insignia was mentioned in a memo to the CO 3rd Infantry Brigade, 23rd Infantry, where it was stated that the battle blazes made it easier,

 

 

“For runners to find their destination; indicated how losses were going; showed officers and men their own lines; made reorganization easier; assisted when battalions leap-frogged ahead; and helped rations get up to the front faster.”

 

 

Memo from HQ, 3rd Brigade, September 6, 1918.

 

 

Just two days after the Ninth Infantry had sewed the distinguishing marks onto their uniforms, on 6 September, a meeting of field officers of the 23rd Infantry took place where they too selected colored insignia for their men to be worn during the upcoming assault. No report of that meeting has been found, but a follow up letter dated 22 September from a 1st lieutenant to the CO 3rd Infantry Brigade, extolling the tactical value of the insignia on the battlefield. In the letter the senior lieutenant recommended that the following scheme be permanently adopted for the 23rd Infantry, and he,

 

 

“…Emphasize the practical value of the green, red, white and blue triangular patches worn by the men and officers of this regiment in the offensive of Sepetember12, as distinguishing marks for the respective battalions. These marks were of great service in enabling the men, in spite of the usual battlefield excitement and consequent confusion to recognize at once their own battalions, and adhere to them. Also these marks enabled our officers to identify to a certain extent, their own men and thus facilitated re-grouping and reorganization of the men at various stages of the action…

 

 

Green triangle: Headquarters and Supply Company and First Battalion

 

White Triangle: Second Battalion

 

Blue Triangle: Third Battalion”

 

 

Letter from First Lieutenant Oskar Y. Youngsdahl, 23rd Infantry, to CO, 23rd Infantry, September 22, 1918.

 

 

In the recommended scheme Lieutenant Youngsdahl made no mention of a red triangle for the 9th Infantry’s Headquarters Company. But it would be logical to assume that the 23rd Infantry adopted a similar color scheme as that used by the 9th Infantry and that subsequently a red triangle was worn by the 23rd Infantry’s Headquarters Company during the St. Mihiel offensive. Youngsdahl a further recommended that in order to identify the individual companies that the triangles of,

 

 

“Headquarters Company and the first company of each battalion (Co. A, E, I) point should be up.

 

Second companies of each battalion (Co. B, F, K) point forward.

 

Supply Company and third companies of each battalion (Co. D, H, M) point rearward …

 

 

…and all detached units, in the time of action, wear the distinguishing (color) triangles of the battalion to which they are attached, in addition to the distinguishing marks of their own unit.”

 

 

Letter from First Lieutenant Oskar Y. Youngsdahl, 23rd Infantry, to CO, 23rd Infantry, September 22, 1918.

 

 

No approval of the Lieutenant’s post St. Mihiel recommendations is on file. However, another officer, a 2nd Lieutenant serving with the 23rd Infantry at the time recalled the last minute orders given by his company commander, as well as everything that he wore and carried during the St. Mihiel drive that took place between 12 and 15 September 1918, including the diamond shaped, blue battle blaze that each of the men of the 3rd Battalion, 23rd Infantry wore on the left sleeve of their service coat,

 

 

“We’ll prepare our battle packs before it gets dark and leave our stuff here until after the drive,” said Thompson. “ Take your emergency rations and all your tools and ammunition. Leave your coats or not as you wish. We’ll stack the stuff down there in the trench and leave three men as a guard. Well sleep until eleven and then start out to the place where we are to jump off.”

 

 

“I set about arranging my stuff. Should I take my overcoat? No! Positively not! For the first time I pictured myself fighting hand to hand. My biceps were small. I could not imagine myself either particularly successful in a wrestling match or a bayonet fight. I simply could not be impeded by a coat that was sure to get heavy, sure to be hampering, and likely to catch in the barbed wire. I wrote my name in indelible pencil inside the coat, wrapped my blanket in it, and tied the bundle. My mussette bag, one of the popular French satchels of canvas and leather with two fastening straps and a broad-web shoulder strap, I set aside. It contained my field glasses, my shaving-kit, some handkerchiefs, some letters from home, my Sam Browne belt, my leather puttees. What I did keep was easy to carry.

 

 

The G.A.R. men who used to speak to the children in grammar school before Memorial Day every year interested me most when they described their wartime experiences in detail. I wanted to know just what they wore and carried and ate, as well as why they fought. That is my warrant for detailing what I took with me into battle.

 

 

It’s nice to think that if you’re killed, people will know who you were. I had a privately made silver identification tag on my left wrist along with my wrist watch; about my neck, on the very piece of tape on which they hung when I left Camp Upton were my two issue identification tags of aluminum. By carving alterations with my pocket-knife I had kept them up to date. One side read ‘2448602 --- 2nd Lieutenant’; the other, ‘Louis F. Ranlett --- Pvt. - Co. B - Corp. - Sgt. - 308 Inf.’

 

 

(Note: the letters Pvt. – Co. B – Corp. – Sgt. – 308 Inf. From Lt. Ranletts dog-tags should all have a forward slash through them indicating that they were carved, as he was promoted. When he made Lt. he was then transferred from the 77th Division to the 2nd Division)

 

 

I wore a money belt that contained my letter of credit, heavy woolen underwear, hand knitted woolen socks, an issue woolen shirt, the heavy woolen sleeveless sweater that my mother had knitted, my old issue enlisted man’s uniform, wrap leggings, field boots. Except for my gold shoulder bars there was no distinguishing my uniform from that of a private. On my left shoulder was sewed the blue diamond shaped piece of cloth that distinguished every member of the 23rd. The men of the 1st Battalion wore blue squares, the men of the second, blue triangles. The men of the other regiments used the same system with cloths of different colors. Division insignia that later became such a colorful part of the uniforms of the A.E.F., had not yet been thought of.

 

 

Half the soldiers of the Civil War were saved from death by Bibles that turned bullets from their hearts. Everyone knows that. Of course I carried my khaki-covered Testament, but not in my left breast-pocket. My steel mirror was there. In other pockets were my small silk flag, my notebook with the names of the men in the platoon, a box of matches, my money, a knife, an indelible pencil. My whistle dangled from my breast-pocket; the satchel of my gasmask was strapped at the alert beneath my chin. My pistol belt carried my canteen, the automatic pistol, four extra loaded magazines, and my first-aid packet. My raincoat hung awkwardly from it at one side. My pack held nothing but my mess-kit, and two cans of beans, two cans of meat. My steel helmet topped off.”

 

 

2nd Lieutenant Felix F. Ranlett, Company K, 23rd Infantry, 2nd Division, A.E.F.

 

‘Let’s Go!’, 1927, Felix F. Ranlett, page 233-234

 

 

As for the ‘USNG” collar disc, pointed out by Socarlus, collar disc, after Belleau Wood and Soissons the 2nd Division received numerous replacements, possibly from the 1st Depot Division. This division was formerly known as the 41st Infantry Division, was a National Guard division that arrived in France in either December 1917 or January 1918.

 

 

Therefore anytime after June 1918, replacement personnel in the 2nd Division could have been wearing the USNG style of collar disc.

 

 

Obviously there is no definitive proof that the ‘patch’ on the soldier’s sleeve is in fact insignia, it does certainly seem to match up well with the evidence at hand.

 

 

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

 

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