1975 UDT Seal Team fatiques Authentic?

[Tonomachi]

This uniform is for sale on eBay (# 190155042289). I've seen fatiques with the UDT patch on the shoulder before but never together with the trident. Even though members of the early Seal Teams came from UDTs I thought they were seperate not UDT and Seal Team at the same time. Is this a legitimate uniform?

[guillaume le ouf]

hello,

 

in my opinion it is a forgery; the patch is a copy which one currently sees. moreover, shirt OG107 is a manufacture for the army and not for the navy!

 

[Spike]

Actually, the shirt IS legit, by the mid 70's UDT's and SEALs both wore the Trident, after all, they both went through the same training. I have a few shirts like this. The OG107 shirt was used by every unit during Vietnam. I have NO problem with this shirt. Also, just because the shirt is dated 76 doesn't mean that it was issued in 76, could have been issued in 77 or 78.

[Jason G]

Hmmmm.....the 'navy' and 'budweiser' patches for some reason just don't look like they've been washed as many times as the shirt. Maybe it's the photo, I dunno. They just look "new" compared to the rest of the rig. The handwritten nametape is kinda....strange.

 

I can't speak to the SSI but overall I'd want to take a real close look at stitch patterns and wear on this one.

[usmc-collector]

my opinion is that this shirt is put together, due to following reasons:

 

1) NAVY tape is commercial reproduction - bellow you can find example of Marines version made similar way, as you can see on auctioned shirt photo the tape has heavilly stitched edges, the reason is that in case it would stitched in normal way it would be easy to spot on bakside the plastic material lining, see photo bellow

 

2) also the letter's font is not correct it has diffrent shape and is to thick compared to regular NAVY tapes, also no space between "U. S." letters, see photo bellow

 

 

3) NAVY tape has incorrect length, it is shorter than it should be and sewn wrong way, the reason is that commercially made repro is cut just behind the first last letter, correct NAVY tape is longer, the tape ends at pocket edge and has folded ends sewn underneath, bellow see photo of NAVY personel wearing the same shirt as pictured in auction, but with correct NAVY tapes

 

1981 NAVY EOD

 

1987 NAVY EOD

[Spike]

I have a SEAL shirt pictured below that has that SAME US NAVY name tape as this UDT shirt and this SEAL shirt is as right as they come, I have seen another shirt of Early's that also has the same US NAVY strip. Bill Early was the Senior Advisor to the LDNN during the last years of the war, this shirt at one time had the Naval Advisory shield on the right shoulder that has long since been removed. Just because you haven't seen pictures of these US NAVY strips on uniforms doesn't mean it didn't happen. BTW, this shirt has been on ebay before. It COULD be fake but judging by what I have in my collection and what I have seen on more than a couple of UDT/SEAL shirts I'd say it was OK.

 

 

[Andrei]

I have a SEAL shirt pictured below that has that SAME US NAVY name tape as this UDT shirt and this SEAL shirt is as right as they come, I have seen another shirt of Early's that also has the same US NAVY strip. Bill Early was the Senior Advisor to the LDNN during the last years of the war, this shirt at one time had the Naval Advisory shield on the right shoulder that has long since been removed. Just because you haven't seen pictures of these US NAVY strips on uniforms doesn't mean it didn't happen. BTW, this shirt has been on ebay before. It COULD be fake but judging by what I have in my collection and what I have seen on more than a couple of UDT/SEAL shirts I'd say it was OK.

Spike,

you remember that the first time we saw this shirt at the GWS, the NAG patch was present on the sleeve.

You passed on it and the guy walked away. Later in the afternoon, Bob and I looked for the guy because I wanted to buy the shirt but we never found him.

 

Andrei

[Spike]

Andrei, this is a different shirt that I found at a swap meet last year for $25.00, this is NOT the same shirt from the GWGS. The guy still has the shirt from what I hear but it's just "lost".

[Andrei]

Swap meet...$25... Spike, you are one of the most luckiest guy I know !

[usmc-collector]

Spike:

 

as I wrote in my opinion....it is put together, I think this forum is there to discuss our experiences and to exchange the photos and informations we have, I didn't said that another shirts could not have local made short NAVY tapes, but I would be very carefull with such examples and these should be verified either by prevoius owner or dated photo of such shirt worn by original owner, I have provided dated photos of NAVY personel with regular NAVY tapes as used on majority NAVY shirts per regulations, if you have any dated photo of navy personel wearing the NAVY shirt with non-regulation short NAVY tape I will appreciate to add it into my photo collection

 

but there is too many odd things with this auctioned shirt if compared to period NAVY regulations:

 

1) placement and length of NAVY tape (I know exceptions exists, but....)

2) different letter font used on tape (I know variations exist, but also many commercial copies)

3) edge stitching /reinforced edge all around NAVY tape (not very common practice)

4) diffrent level of wear on NAVY / NAME tape and shirt fabric

5) Name tape hand inked, (I know such examples exists, but....)

 

so I would not buy this as collection piece, if there is no dated photo of owner wearing this shirt in setup as presented for auction, to many odd signs at once, and also too many fakes starting popup especially on ebay, it seems SEALS items are starting to be popular

 

for sure you are more experienced NAVY SEAL collector than I am because I collect USMC items, so I may be wrong

[Spike]

Cool, but not buying something because you have no photographic evidence is kinda weird and you may miss out on something pretty cool....oh well. Bottom line, I don't have problem with this shirt though the name tape is kinda weird. The way this shirt is badged out is exactly the way UDT's wore their uniforms around 76 to 79 or so, I do have photgraphic evidence of these shirts from a 77/78 UDT 12 cruise book. As I'm in Australia right now I can't look the name up. Like I said, this UDT shirt was on EBAY last year I think.

[usmc-collector]

Spike,

I trust you, that you have photos of NAVY shirts in book badged same way as shirt on auction, I just sent my concerns, may be right, may be wrong with this example.

 

Of course I buy items and do not ask for photo as evidence to prove the originality, I just mentioned photo evidence with this particular item as I do not belive it is legit one example, becuse it is more and more common especially now on ebay than many regular uniforms are badged up, added ribbons, medals, changed details, name changed and etc. to increase the final price, interesting to see how many "real one" WW2 Airborne, SEALS, Special Forces, Rangers and etc. uniforms is recently for sale everywhere

 

according to feedbeack seller seems to be honest man, but many "questionable auctions" also discussed on this forum, starts decription as with this auction - I am not an expert on ......, but I have been told...... , the reasons can be diffrent honest seller is not sure about authenticity of item or some bad seller sells faked item and do not want to guarantee money return, so sell as is, also this auction has no word about money return.

 

At the end I think it is always decision of the buyer if he wants to spent high money on the item, so it is up to him decide what he thinks about purchased item autheticity.

[Tonomachi]

I appreciate all the feedback and it is somewhat scary when knowledgeable collectors have varying opinions so what is the new collector to do in this hobby. I could use some opinions on this Seal Team uniform short sleeve shirt. It is dated 1969 but the insignia looks 1980s. The olive drab thread used to sew on the insignia matches the thead used to shorten the sleeves. Is this a legitimate uniform?

[Andrei]

I appreciate all the feedback and it is somewhat scary when knowledgeable collectors have varying opinions so what is the new collector to do in this hobby. I could use some opinions on this Seal Team uniform short sleeve shirt. It is dated 1969 but the insignia looks 1980s. The olive drab thread used to sew on the insignia matches the thead used to shorten the sleeves. Is this a legitimate uniform?

Some trace of removed name tape ?

[doyler]

I appreciate all the feedback and it is somewhat scary when knowledgeable collectors have varying opinions so what is the new collector to do in this hobby. I could use some opinions on this Seal Team uniform short sleeve shirt. It is dated 1969 but the insignia looks 1980s. The olive drab thread used to sew on the insignia matches the thead used to shorten the sleeves. Is this a legitimate uniform?

 

 

My opinion is the insignia is more recent.The weave of the material on the US NAVY tape is of the more current type Im use to seeing.Same goes for the wing and the SEAL qual badge.On the other hand the tropical jacket were in inventory for years.I dont know the regulations for wear by the Navy but the ArmyRangers wore them up through the 1980s.It is not to uncommon to find baged out uniforms from a Ranger veteranof the 1980s.

 

In this day and age if not obtained from a veteran first hand or from a trusted ealer with traceable history on a uniform the item is open to speculation.

 

I have some Navy SEAL tropical jackets from Gary Smith.Others on the forum have pieces as well.Mine came out of a batch being sold by Hayes Otoupalik several years ago.It is my understanding that Smith would bring stuff to shows by the trunk load and sell.He had some odd combinations of items and uniforms as he was in as I understand for close to 30 years.Some pieces have mix of US and VN made insignia.The trousers will have SMITH or G.R.SMITH on a cloth tape over the rear right butt pocket.some of the items also have his name written inside in ink marker as well.The pieces I have all have Army style jump wings on them and no SEAL qual badge.One former SEAL told me that they (him?)didnt wear the badge in country(Viet-Nam).Would wear a wing or no insignia at all.He stated that they would wear them in Subic Bay,US,Japan,Austrailia but not in VN.It was my understanding that they wanted to keep a low profile.His story not mine

[Bob Hudson]

Actually, the shirt IS legit, by the mid 70's UDT's and SEALs both wore the Trident, after all, they both went through the same training. I have a few shirts like this. The OG107 shirt was used by every unit during Vietnam. I have NO problem with this shirt. Also, just because the shirt is dated 76 doesn't mean that it was issued in 76, could have been issued in 77 or 78.

 

Agree - I sold a couple dozen Navy (mostly SeaBees) OG107 shirts in the least year or so. From 1957-1964 the Marines had their own brand of olive green shirt (the so-called Gomer Pyle shirt) but after that, OG-107 was what everyone used. A 1976 shirt would be Fiscal Year 1976, which runs from June 76 to July 77 and it probably was not issued in 76.

 

Interesting comments about the name tapes: but I have seen so many variations of name tapes that I'd think you have a hard time making a case one way or another based on that. Military utility uniforms have become very uniform in the last couple of years (probably because it's replaced dress uniforms for day to day work even for military desk jockeys) but it's clear that in decades past there was a lot of leeway granted in some areas of the military. I think this is one of those areas where you have to know the provenance to know if it's the real thing, because there is no such thing as a clear cut standard against which to measure it. Remember: GI's seldom know the uniform regulations as well as militaria collectors.

[Tonomachi]

Some trace of removed name tape ?

 

Nothing has ever been sewn on the name tape side.

[Andrei]

It could be spare uniform left over without name tape. The original owner left the unit or service and never used this jacket.

Or it could be a put together item by someone who did not have a name tape or did not want to put a name tape on it.

It is hard to tell.

Perhaps Gil and Spike would have another answer to that mystery. Am sure Spike will tell us about the Trident and the Navy Jumpwings worn together on the same uniform.

 

Andrei

[cbuehler]

If there is one thing I have learned in nearly 20 years of collecting, it is that there is no such thing as absolutes.

It can sometimes be impossible to make judgements regarding VN era and later uniforms regarding their insignia.

Name and service tapes have been made in a limitless variety. Even the old addage that all insignia should be sewn on with the same thread or have the same wear etc. doesnt always hold up. One could think of a dozen reasons why, the answers known only to the orginal vet/owner ( or the faker!) themselves.

In some cases, one just needs to acknowledge the opinions of others and go with your own gut feeling.

 

 

CB

[Spike]

Hey, what happened to my photo of the Early SEAL shirt?

[gwb123]

It could be spare uniform left over without name tape. The original owner left the unit or service and never used this jacket.

Or it could be a put together item by someone who did not have a name tape or did not want to put a name tape on it.

It is hard to tell.

Perhaps Gil and Spike would have another answer to that mystery. Am sure Spike will tell us about the Trident and the Navy Jumpwings worn together on the same uniform.

 

Andrei

 

Some one made the comment earlier about there being a lot of leeway in the early years with fatigue uniforms. I am attaching the following photos.

 

Below 1) Fatigue shirt with yellow insignia. This one baffled me for years. The only sense I could make out of it was since Naval Aviation insignia is in gold, that might have been the inspiration for the colors of the insignia. Found in a Salvation Army in Hawaii during the 1980's, but I believe it would have been worn long before that.

 

And as an added bonus to the discussion.... No name tape!

 

Below 2) COSRIVDIV XI shirt from Mare Island. Cannot recall if this was before or after Vietnam deployment. This was donated directly from a veteran to a museum in Dallas. The museum is currently in storage.

 

Getting back to the above Jungle Fatigue without a name tape, there could be dozens of reasons for that. The name tape may have intentionally been left off in case the owner was deployed to an area that was not a warzone, but hostile. Some place where we would not want the locals gathering names. Or it could just as easily something as mundane as what Andrei suggested, the uniform was never completed. It would not be the first time a soldier or sailor ran out of name tapes! I agree the insignia look post Vietnam.

[gwb123]

Getting back to the beginning of this discussion...

 

I've looked at this a couple times. There is another photo on the eBay listing showing a closer shot of the shoulder patch.

 

To me, it looks like the shoulder patch is more worn and laundered than the rest of the uniform. The Trident and the US Navy tape look in good shape, and are not wrinkled or distorted. The UDT Team 12 patch looks loose, floppy and wrinkled, to say nothing about the wear around the edges.

 

It could just be a poorly made patch, but the wear on it does not seem consistent with the rest of the uniform. To be this wrinkled it would have to be sewn on poorly to start with, and that is not matching how well squared off everything else is.

 

As stated in other forums, it would be instructive if we could flip the shirt inside out. Patches that have been worn into a uniform leave a pressed in outline. Patches added to a shirt often do not have this same deep impression.

 

Regardless of what we say here, someone thinks it is a good piece. Bidding is at $54.99 with 3 days left. I bet there will be some last minute sniping as well.

[Spike]

The reason the UDT 12 patch might look more worn is because I'm pretty sure it is made on a poplin type material, I have quite a few and when I say that I'm mean dozens of UDT 11 and 12 patches and they are made on a few different types of material and I have patches just like that one pictured. Sometimes patches tended to get a bit distorted after many washings. The other thing to remember is that there might be the possiblity that the guy had a jump wing over the Navy tape then when UDT's were authorized to were the Trident he woulda taken the wing off and sewn on the Trident hence it might look a little newer.

[Andrei]

Guys,

the shirt is now at $304.99 with nearly 3 days left to go !

[USMCRECON]

I appreciate all the feedback and it is somewhat scary when knowledgeable collectors have varying opinions so what is the new collector to do in this hobby. I could use some opinions on this Seal Team uniform short sleeve shirt. It is dated 1969 but the insignia looks 1980s. The olive drab thread used to sew on the insignia matches the thead used to shorten the sleeves. Is this a legitimate uniform?

 

Just a thought on older jungle jackets and later patches..........I do not know enough to make any claime regarding authenticity of this jacket. However, back in the early 1980s when I was still flying we used to work closely with the Combat Control Team from Hurlburt Field. Most of the time when we would get together for coordination, meetings, etc, they were dressed in rip-stop Vietnam era OD Jungle utilities with 1980s era subdued or full-color 1st SOW patches, etc.

 

Most, but not all, wore black leather aircrew style, velcro-attached name tape with name, rank, and wings printed in silver on the leather over the left pocket. Those that did not had the standard (for the 1980s) OD AF and name tapes with blue lettering as well as standard OD/blue emgroidered jump and aircrew wings above the name tape.