Help with E Pluribus Unum Belt and Buckle

[all-bull]

Hello,

First off, I apologize if this is the wrong section to post this. But I was wondering if anyone could tell me about this belt and buckle. I paid $10 for it, so even if it's ROTC I won't be disappointed. Would really appreciate any information on what this is, the age, etc. Thanks so much!!!

[all-bull]

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[market garden]

The belt buckle is a 1850 Pattern NCO buckle I believe it was used up to the early 20th Century. The belt you have looks like it is folded over leather. 1890's. without my belt buckle and belt book in hand thats the best I can do. Also I have no clue if it is original with the pics you have shown. I believe there may be a manufacture mark on the back of the buckle near the edge, where the belt loops through. . John

[VMI88]

I suspect this was used at a military school: VMI and I suspect West Point and the Citadel still use this pattern. However, the belts used now are plain leather and this one definitely appears to have some age on it. I'd guess 1940's or earlier.

 

Bill

[all-bull]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the help. This is definitely a nice high quality leather, yet still supple. There is a good amount of verdigris where the belt passes through the buckle and also some verdigris prints where a keeper used to be....I tried removing the buckle from the belt but it has been there so long I don't want to mess with it too much. Unfortunately, this was at a sale where there was period CW items, repro CW items, dug WWI and CW items, and ROTC items from 1900s to present, so I can't use the estate to estimate the date on this. But I hope someone can give me a positive ID on it. Thanks again!

[ludwigh1980]

Here's my two cents. I collect 19th century American Militaria. I the belt plate though a 1851 pattern, the pattern was worn by officer and NCO's alike. The NCO plates were typically cast with applied german silver wreaths. Officer examples were just solid either cast or stamped or even the whole eagle, wreath and stars applied for fancier grade plates. I have seen this particular style of belt being worn by Army officers during the turn of the last century (19th/20th) specifically during the Spanish American War. It is unlikely that this is a School plate as they usually have nothing at all (rounded unadorned plates) or School specific insignia. State guard officers also wore this style of belt. This is an officers belt and would be correct for a Army officer from 1890-1910. I have had examples of this belt as well as the full dress bullion sword belts.

 

Terence

 

 

 

 

Hey guys,

Thanks for the help. This is definitely a nice high quality leather, yet still supple. There is a good amount of verdigris where the belt passes through the buckle and also some verdigris prints where a keeper used to be....I tried removing the buckle from the belt but it has been there so long I don't want to mess with it too much. Unfortunately, this was at a sale where there was period CW items, repro CW items, dug WWI and CW items, and ROTC items from 1900s to present, so I can't use the estate to estimate the date on this. But I hope someone can give me a positive ID on it. Thanks again!

[USMCRECON]

Here's my two cents. I collect 19th century American Militaria. I the belt plate though a 1851 pattern, the pattern was worn by officer and NCO's alike. The NCO plates were typically cast with applied german silver wreaths. Officer examples were just solid either cast or stamped or even the whole eagle, wreath and stars applied for fancier grade plates. I have seen this particular style of belt being worn by Army officers during the turn of the last century (19th/20th) specifically during the Spanish American War. It is unlikely that this is a School plate as they usually have nothing at all (rounded unadorned plates) or School specific insignia. State guard officers also wore this style of belt. This is an officers belt and would be correct for a Army officer from 1890-1910. I have had examples of this belt as well as the full dress bullion sword belts.

 

Terence

I hope you're right about Span-Am period. I just bought an almost identical buckle (no belt) off eBay. I got it from a seller I've dealt with before and it was listed as a Span-Am officer's buckle. Here's a pic of front and back of the one I just bought (from the auction page...don't have it in hand yet).

 

[VMI88]

It is unlikely that this is a School plate as they usually have nothing at all (rounded unadorned plates) or School specific insignia.

As a VMI graduate I can assure you that these plates are still being worn by cadet officers there today. Granted, this looks like an older one.

 

Bill

[ludwigh1980]

Look in a Dorsey Book on American belts and you will see. The new stuff looks nothing like the old. Also check out ebay's indian wars section. Ask any digger and metal detectorist of Frontier fort and they will say the same thing. Look at Osgood's book on U.S. Army uniforms. Ask Hays Otopalik (Biggest pre ww2 collector of all time) and he will say the same thing. Don't take my word for it, there are plenty of reference material on the subject. Been dealing in Indian Wars myself for 25 years . The belt if pliable would go for about $75-150 on ebay in the Indian Wars section or Span Am Section.

 

Terry

 

As a VMI graduate I can assure you that these plates are still being worn by cadet officers there today. Granted, this looks like an older one.

 

Bill

[VMI88]

The new stuff looks nothing like the old.

Thus my comment that this looks like an older one.

 

Bill

[KurtA]

As a VMI graduate I can assure you that these plates are still being worn by cadet officers there today. Granted, this looks like an older one.

 

Bill

Concur with Bill. As a Citadel graduate, I can say the Citadel also has used this style buckle for many years. It's was very common for this style buckle to be used at military schools.

 

Yes, new ones are very different from the one pictured, but, to me, this has a 20th century "look" to it - especially being stamped rather than solid. The 19th century ones "tended" to be solid. The belt seems to have the same finish and multi rows of stitching like the many between-the-wars (WW1-WW2) USN officer belts I've seen. The leather just doesn't look 100 years old.

 

Interesting that, unlike most buckles of this style, the eagle is facing to the right.

 

These older type buckles are commonly sold as "Indian Wars" and "Span Am" - thus bringing much more money than if they were marketed as "military school."

 

Whatever it is, $10 was a very good deal.

Kurt

[hawk3370]

Hello,

First off, I apologize if this is the wrong section to post this. But I was wondering if anyone could tell me about this belt and buckle. I paid $10 for it, so even if it's ROTC I won't be disappointed. Would really appreciate any information on what this is, the age, etc. Thanks so much!!!

 

There is a wonderful book by Michael J. O'Donnell & J. Duncan Campbell "American Military Belt Plates". In his book he identifies this style as the Regulation 1874 Pattern Army Officers. He goes on to say that the eagle head facing to the right as you look at it was acceptable during the period. With all that being said, there are no examples in the book of a thin struck plate such as this one. All the plates that are pictured are the solid heavy type. This style was worn up into the 1920's and beyond. I suspect that yours is of the later period and not Span Am War period.

Terry