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Can this obituary possibly be true?


Bluehawk
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I found this recent obituary of great interest, written by a son of his father's passing. I leave most identifiers out of the text because there is no wish whatsoever to impugn the memorial; but, I am very curious to know if anyone reading it would feel how much of it comes close to plausible in whole or in part. Granted that our family memories may be skewed by all kinds of emotions...

 

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" _____________________, 63, passed away peacefully at about 11:30 am, ____________, ___________ 17, 2011 at ____________Medical Center from complications after suffering a heart attack some two weeks back.

 

During the course of his care, he was surrounded by and cared for by loving family and friends.

 

He is a marine, he was my father. Dad enlisted in the corps in _____________, WV during the Vietnam war under protest as his brother ___________ was serving in the United States Air Force stationed in Germany and the corps had issue that he might be the family's sole surviving son should harm come.

 

Dad loved the Marine Corps with every fiber of his being. He was a Marine in every essence. Dad never spoke much about Vietnam. He served three tours with the 2nd Marine Reconnaissance Battalion. During this time he was awarded for valor for running across 100 yards of open fire to rescue two downed pilots in an AE-4 Skyhawk that crashed at an airstrip his unit was guarding, opening the air craft and cutting free the two airmen from the burn ing plane. He placed one on his shoulder and drug the other behind and ran back across the firefight.

 

Both airmen survived. The airman on his shoulder took a bullet. They counted eight bullet holes in his uniform. He was not hit.

 

Dad also fought in the multi-day NVC raid at Khe Sahn. I recall him telling of how when it was all done, the troops gathered in the open and they stripped naked and fire hoses were turned on as it was the first shower they'd had in more than a week. On another occasion he was with marines in a bunker where a mortar landed but did not explode. He and all of the servicemen with him considered themselves lucky to be alive.

 

He was taken Prisoner of War twice. He was reported KIA multiple times. During the last time taken prisoner, he led an escape of multiple troops after an air strike hit the encampment in which they were being held. He led these troops through the jungle for several days, where-upon they eventually over took and captured an American patrol joking "take us back or kill us, were not staying in this jungle anymore". They were critically dehydrated and an infection caused him to lose most of his teeth. He kept fighting.

 

He received a field commission in Vietnam for his bravery, leadership, and devotion to the Marine Corps.

 

Upon returning stateside, dad joined ___________ climbing telephone poles and installing home service in Miami, FL. Eventually he moved to _________, FL and over the next 25 years worked his way to management and mainframe computer technology with _______ network data systems.

 

His love of the military and its values prompted him to join the Army National Guard where for another several decades. He was with the 705th MP Company stationed out of Cocoa Beach, FL.The 705ths MOS was EPW, enemy prisoner of war, so they were one of the first units activated during the first gulf war.

 

Dad was stationed in Quwait and Iraq. His unit ran the massive POW camp for the Iraqis fleeing Saddam's evil empire for the dignity and security of American internment.

 

Everywhere he went, Sargent _________ was immensely popular. He was well respected by his troops and known for his combat sensibility, irresistible barbecue, his interminable spirit, his intense love of barracks poker, the ladies, and the unbreakable bond he'd paid dearly for with American men and women in harms way.

 

He is survived by his wife, ________; daughter and son-in-law, _________ and __________; his son, _________; and grandchildren, _________ and _________.

 

Good night, Marine. May your boots enjoy a well-earned rest. We will always love you. Dad believed that life was meant to be lived with this, there will be no services. The family has requested that in lieu of gifts, please consider making a donation to the injured Marine Fund at: www.semperfifund.org."

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The questions I have would have to do with his distinguished Marine Corps Career. First, why wouldn't he retire from his beloved Corps? Next, why would he join the National Guard and not the Marine Corps Reserve??

I will not speculate about how true the obituary is. Only ask the questions that jump out at me.

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The eight bullet holes part is probably an exaggeration -- definitely possible I guess, but highly unlikely, and sounds more like an embellished war story -- might have been some shell fragments or something? It wasn't wildly implausible until the "taken prisoner twice" bit. That's kind of tough to swallow. Without knowing the guy, or his story, my gut reaction says MOST of it is true, some of it he probably embellished or "remembered a little too fondly" and some the son added to as well. Could all be complete BS, and that does happen sometimes where a guy has lied to so many people that it's not until after he's dead and buried that the truth comes out.

 

Jack's Son -- it's actually not all that uncommon for Marines to leave the Corps and end up in the National Guard. I've been surprised at just how many former Marines, (grunts, recon, intel guys -- not just cooks even!) pop up in Army Reserve or NG units. Going from USMC in Vietnam to National Guard for 20+ years as an enlisted troop, it's a little unlikely that he'd have gone to Desert Storm, but again, not impossible, and certainly nothing that strikes me as completely ludicrous.

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The Marine to Guard part is very believable. Take as an example the 142d FA Brigade, Btry C, AR ARNG. On 911 it had a strength of 94 officers and men. Of these 32 were former Marines, including 4 out of 5 officers. That is very common, as Guard units are many times more conveniently located than Marine reserve outfits. Also when this same Brigade mobilized for Desert Storm they took with them no less than 76 Vietnam Vets (Brigade wide). Now the Vietnam stories from this memorial sound like they might have grown in scope and size over the years... in fact I must have some of his close comrades in my VFW post, as the stories are remarkably similar :D

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Thank you, all.

 

I couldn't put my finger on any one or two things, but as a whole it just seemed exaggerated in a number of places. The Skyhawk designation would probably have been A-4E, for example, not AE-4, but a natural mistake. Marines surely did fly Skyhawks over Vietnam starting in about 1965 which is a plausible year coinciding with this man's age, and though carrier-based sometimes had to use the land. The part about hauling 2 downed airmen at once across 100 yards under fire is, well, the dad must have been a rather large and fresh Marine.

 

Worst I could think of was misremembering of stories, but still, this is what has been recorded as history.

 

Appreciate the consideration of it.

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if some of those actions happened, I'm sure he received an award. You could try scanning the valor records for him

I'm surprised they weren't mentioned in the obit. They are a lot of times. At least in my neck of the woods.

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suwanneetrader

We all love our Dads. My WWII Marine on Iwo Jima Dad was to me, as a pre-teen, bigger than life ! He was my HERO then and taday on my 73rd birthday-- He still is. I try not to embellish stories I was told of him by relatives (as he spoke very little of what happened on Guam and Iwo Jima) he only talked about the non-battle funny things. But I can see how some stories can grow over the years. Anyway, if only a small part is accurate, he did GOOD. Richard --- Semper-Fi

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Was the 2nd Recon Bn even in VN? The 1st, yes. The 3rd, at least partially (knew TWO vets of the 3rd, who joined the MDARNG 1-175IN together). But the 2nd would have been an Atlantic-side unit.

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While it's possible that the war stories have been built up over the years, but honestly that happens to most war stories.

 

As far as being in the Marine Corps in Vietnam and then in the Army National Guard in Iraq, thats not nearly as outlandish as it may sound. When I was in Iraq in '07, I worked with PSYOPS team NCO who was a reservist out of Texas and had been a Marine in Vietnam in '68. I also worked with a SGT in Afghanistan last year that was from the Georgia National Guard, he had been a Recon Marine in Vietnam in '69. Of course these guys were pretty darn old by combat zone standards, but they were both legit. They of course had very large breaks in service between their Vietnam days and the time I met them.

 

Vance

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There are a lot of things much worse then this son's love and admiration for his father. Even if embellished to a degree, the basic elements of his father's life are true.

 

I wish to GOD I had such remembrances of my father. I wish I could tell my son stories that would fill him with pride. But I can't, so I have been quiet over the years.

 

Sometimes no stories fill volumes, and silence is deafening.

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  • 8 months later...
I found this recent obituary of great interest, written by a son of his father's passing. I leave most identifiers out of the text because there is no wish whatsoever to impugn the memorial; but, I am very curious to know if anyone reading it would feel how much of it comes close to plausible in whole or in part. Granted that our family memories may be skewed by all kinds of emotions...

 

---------------------------------------------

 

" _____________________, 63, passed away peacefully at about 11:30 am, ____________, ___________ 17, 2011 at ____________Medical Center from complications after suffering a heart attack some two weeks back.

 

During the course of his care, he was surrounded by and cared for by loving family and friends.

 

He is a marine, he was my father. Dad enlisted in the corps in _____________, WV during the Vietnam war under protest as his brother ___________ was serving in the United States Air Force stationed in Germany and the corps had issue that he might be the family's sole surviving son should harm come.

 

Dad loved the Marine Corps with every fiber of his being. He was a Marine in every essence. Dad never spoke much about Vietnam. He served three tours with the 2nd Marine Reconnaissance Battalion. During this time he was awarded for valor for running across 100 yards of open fire to rescue two downed pilots in an AE-4 Skyhawk that crashed at an airstrip his unit was guarding, opening the air craft and cutting free the two airmen from the burn ing plane. He placed one on his shoulder and drug the other behind and ran back across the firefight.

 

Both airmen survived. The airman on his shoulder took a bullet. They counted eight bullet holes in his uniform. He was not hit.

 

Dad also fought in the multi-day NVC raid at Khe Sahn. I recall him telling of how when it was all done, the troops gathered in the open and they stripped naked and fire hoses were turned on as it was the first shower they'd had in more than a week. On another occasion he was with marines in a bunker where a mortar landed but did not explode. He and all of the servicemen with him considered themselves lucky to be alive.

 

He was taken Prisoner of War twice. He was reported KIA multiple times. During the last time taken prisoner, he led an escape of multiple troops after an air strike hit the encampment in which they were being held. He led these troops through the jungle for several days, where-upon they eventually over took and captured an American patrol joking "take us back or kill us, were not staying in this jungle anymore". They were critically dehydrated and an infection caused him to lose most of his teeth. He kept fighting.

 

He received a field commission in Vietnam for his bravery, leadership, and devotion to the Marine Corps.

 

Upon returning stateside, dad joined ___________ climbing telephone poles and installing home service in Miami, FL. Eventually he moved to _________, FL and over the next 25 years worked his way to management and mainframe computer technology with _______ network data systems.

 

His love of the military and its values prompted him to join the Army National Guard where for another several decades. He was with the 705th MP Company stationed out of Cocoa Beach, FL.The 705ths MOS was EPW, enemy prisoner of war, so they were one of the first units activated during the first gulf war.

 

Dad was stationed in Quwait and Iraq. His unit ran the massive POW camp for the Iraqis fleeing Saddam's evil empire for the dignity and security of American internment.

 

Everywhere he went, Sargent _________ was immensely popular. He was well respected by his troops and known for his combat sensibility, irresistible barbecue, his interminable spirit, his intense love of barracks poker, the ladies, and the unbreakable bond he'd paid dearly for with American men and women in harms way.

 

He is survived by his wife, ________; daughter and son-in-law, _________ and __________; his son, _________; and grandchildren, _________ and _________.

 

Good night, Marine. May your boots enjoy a well-earned rest. We will always love you. Dad believed that life was meant to be lived with this, there will be no services. The family has requested that in lieu of gifts, please consider making a donation to the injured Marine Fund at: www.semperfifund.org."

 

 

I weanted to bring this back up because I am a recently joined member and just read it for the first time.

 

If you want t pursue this, I have ALL the USMC units deployed to Vietnam monthly summaries and I also have all of the fixed wing (also rotary wing in a different database) accident summaries.

 

First, the A-4E was a single seat aircraft. A total of 70 USMC A-4s were in South Vietnam and a total of 81 were l;ost during the VN war.

 

The two seat version was the TA-4F and the Marines lost a total of 10 with 7 being in Vietnam.

 

The US Navy lost a total of 271 A-4sw but only 7 were in South Vietnam. They lost no TA-4Fs.

 

I have the POW databases and that would be easy to research especially when married up with the unit monthly summaries which would report MIAs or POWS recovered.

 

But, based on my training, experience and knowledge, most of the facts concerning Vietnam are highly suspicious.

 

But, rearch to what end? No good can come of it other than to resolve the curiousity

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I weanted to bring this back up because I am a recently joined member and just read it for the first time.

 

If you want t pursue this, I have ALL the USMC units deployed to Vietnam monthly summaries and I also have all of the fixed wing (also rotary wing in a different database) accident summaries.

 

First, the A-4E was a single seat aircraft. A total of 70 USMC A-4s were in South Vietnam and a total of 81 were l;ost during the VN war.

 

The two seat version was the TA-4F and the Marines lost a total of 10 with 7 being in Vietnam.

 

The US Navy lost a total of 271 A-4sw but only 7 were in South Vietnam. They lost no TA-4Fs.

 

I have the POW databases and that would be easy to research especially when married up with the unit monthly summaries which would report MIAs or POWS recovered.

 

But, based on my training, experience and knowledge, most of the facts concerning Vietnam are highly suspicious.

 

But, rearch to what end? No good can come of it other than to resolve the curiousity

 

I was thinking the same thing, A-4E only have one seat.

 

Leonardo

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.

 

But, based on my training, experience and knowledge, most of the facts concerning Vietnam are highly suspicious.

 

But, rearch to what end? No good can come of it other than to resolve the curiousity

 

Agreed. I have a grouping I got from the son of a corpsman wounded three times while serving with the Marines in Vietnam. His son know his father was wounded three times and saw his Bronze Star certificate, but the son says beyond that he could never believe his father's stories. He told me, "If he was in Vietnam for three months he would incorporate 13 other people's stories as his own."

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Agreed. I have a grouping I got from the son of a corpsman wounded three times while serving with the Marines in Vietnam. His son know his father was wounded three times and saw his Bronze Star certificate, but the son says beyond that he could never believe his father's stories. He told me, "If he was in Vietnam for three months he would incorporate 13 other people's stories as his own."

 

 

One of the things i learned as a military history researcher and military document examiner for the US Department of Veterans Affairs is that for every true veteran of extreme combat there are a half a dozen (or more) who like to either enhance their own experiences or even fabricate them. I did a lot of work for the Office of the (VA) Inspector General directed at fraudulent claims for compensation or pension. There are many that were submitted by people who are not even veterans.

 

The folks that do it are always amazed to learn that 1. the documents are no longer classified and 2. the documents that can prove or disprove their claims do exist.

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Manchu Warrior
The questions I have would have to do with his distinguished Marine Corps Career. First, why wouldn't he retire from his beloved Corps? Next, why would he join the National Guard and not the Marine Corps Reserve??

I will not speculate about how true the obituary is. Only ask the questions that jump out at me.

Had a few Marines in my National Guard unit. Simply because there were no USMC combat arms reserve units in the my state and they wanted to remain in the infantry.

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But, based on my training, experience and knowledge, most of the facts concerning Vietnam are highly suspicious.

Thank you.

 

I had my doubts too, with far far less in the way of training, experience or knowledge. Yet, it is gratifying, in some way, to realize that even amateur instincts such as mine might sometimes be justified.

 

To what end? I suppose increasing of knowledge, and nothing more.

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RIP soldier.

 

However, his name is not showing on the Library of Congress POW/ MIA list.

 

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/powquery.html

 

He also is not mentioned on the DOD list either.

 

http://www.dtic.mil/dpmo/vietnam/

 

I am wondering if the story was that he was separated from his unit during action, and managed to make his way back... twice... the second time leading others as well.

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Thanks to "gunbarrel" and all:

 

 

"This is dad's boot-camp photo. The Orlando Sentinel did a story on him, here. The writer was under deadline and they didn't get all the details right, most notably he was 2nd Marine Recon Forest Unit. He and he told me once they used to volunteer for door gunner duty. And the article incorrectly implies that he was primarily a door gunner.

 

We have opened a memorial guest-book and would deeply appreciate any reminiscences from any of the guys he served with: http://www.legacy.com/guestbook/flor...49021&cid=view "

post-3976-1320293460.jpg

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canadian bacon

thought i would add this photo i was supprised when i looked at the ribbon bar due to the fact that nothing seems to be in order

post-45276-1320295325.jpg

 

cheers michael

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