Regimental Flags

[bheskett]

Just a question. Is there a law prohibiting the ownership of a regimental flag? I have seen guidons and other flags in museums etc. and was wondering if these belonged to the state or federal governments or were they kept by the unit commander when a unit was deactivated etc.

Thanks

 

Bob

[ehrentitle]

Flag and guidons remain the property of the US Government and if there is no proof that it was declared excess, the US Army Center of Military History will employ the assistance of law enforcement to retrieve what it considers historically significant flags. That's not saying they have the time or resources to go after every flag and guidon that's ever walked out the gate of an Army post. But if it's a high profile item it will get scrutinized, like the December 2010 sale of a flag found at Little Big Horn that sold for $2.2 million. I'm sure the Army looked closely at the provenance of this guidon before the auction,

[bheskett]

That makes sense. I have seen some of them and though about what happened after the unit was no longer active what happens to all of them. I would sure like to see the warehouse with these things in it. I wouls also imagine they cost a couple of bucks if you could find one floating around out there. I would also imagine if they were after these things they would have snagged up the Little Big Horn Flag.

 

Bob

[ehrentitle]

All historical property, including unit colors and guidons are supposed to be returned to the US Army Center of Military History when a unit is disbanded. They are held is storage or sent to an Army museum until the day the unit is reactivated. That of course doesn't always happen and you do see regimental flags and company guidons show up on E-bay and elsewhere.

 

back when I was adjutant of the 2nd Battalion, 47th Infantry at Fort Lewis in the early 80s, I learned that the lowest numbered active battalion in an Infantry Regiment was authorized to maintain the colors of the regiment. So I wrote wrote the Center of Military History and requested the 47th Infantry Regiment's colors. It took them months to locate them, but they were finally found hanging from the ceiling of a chapel at Fort Benning. Apparently there was a fight to get the chapel to give them up since it took another 2 months for me to receive them. It turned out that they were the original colors issued to the 47th Infantry Regiment in WWII and they were magnificent with more than a dozen streamers for unit citations from WWII and Vietnam including 8 Presidential Unit Citations. We placed them in a position of honor in a trophy case at the entrance of our battalion headquarters.

[J_Andrews]

The manufacture of regimental colors (big flag with U.S. eagle and the unit coat of arms (shield, motto and crest) in full-color) and guidons and various organizational flags (No eagle) USED TO BE done in Philadelphia PA. (The name of the depot has changed several times, and it may now be entirely closed, due to BRAC.) When the colors were HAND embroidered, I was told that the workers were "little old Italian ladies", some of whom worked their all their lives and some were daughters and nieces of past needlework artists.

 

IIRC a regimental color took 800 hours of work, in the 1970s.

 

However, machine-embroidery was substituted about 20 years ago. For an interim period, a few hand-embroiderers were kept on, to work on special projects, such as Presidential flags. There are now probably none.

 

The old style colors were, upon close examination, works of art. The machine-embroidered ones look tacky (Don't look too close, or squint your eyes...)

 

 

At the Oklahoma National Guard museum ( a must-see when you are in OKC), there is a chapel/gallery with dozens of "historic colors" of OK units -- nice effort, but they are all new-made, on POLYESTER, with bowling-shirt-type embroidery.

 

Colors were supposed to be returned to Philadelphia for storage whenever a unit was inactivated or disbanded -- or a new set of colors arrived. But the return rate was not much more than 50%. Some were taken by the last commander or sgt maj -- who either did not know of the retirement procedure or ignored it.

 

Guidons are less valuable and OFTEN get "retained" by the outgoing commander or senior NCO. Indeed, guidons are often made locally, rather than "exercising the system" and waiting perhaps months for the genuine article to show up through supply channels. Many guidons are shipped to units (or posts, for storage until needed) without the letters and numerals, which then get added on loc ally. Iron-on characters are not uncommon!

[bheskett]

WOW

 

I just figured the commander got to keep it. Boy was I wrong, or maybee half wrong if the return rate was that low. I would imagine the pile of flags must be staggering to look at and many would need reatoration work to bring back to life. I would like to see one the older flags up close to see the work on it. They must be fantastic peices of embroidery.

[ehrentitle]

Regimental Colors are still made at the Defense Supply Center Philadelphia (DSCP). Flags are made of rayon now days rather than silk. Hand embroidered unit colors can still be made but unit commanders are warned that this will take a year or more. They have the option of having a machine made flag delivered in less than half that time. Below is a photo of a flag being made by machine:

 

 

DSCP hand embroiders all presidential and vice presidential flags, see this 2009 article on this topic:

http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=52580

 

I've never heard of guidons being delivered without numbers or letters. They are also ordered from Philadelphia and take about a month to deliver and are shipped directly to the unit commander. However there are shops on or near every major post that sell copies of guidons. Many times these are used until the official guidon is received and are often presented as gifts to the Commander or 1st Sergeant once they depart. An official guidon or unit colors will have a Gov't tag inside the pole sleeve as well as leather straps to attach it to the pole.

 

Unit colors and guidons are not returned to Philadelphia, since they are historical property they go to the Center of Military History and I believe there current storage facility is located somewhere in Maryland.

 

For everything you ever wanted to know about this topic see Army Regulation 840–10 Flags, Guidons, Streamers, Tabards, and Automobile and Aircraft Plates dated 1 November 1998. Which contains the following paragraph that answers Bheskett's original question:

 

10–5. (2) Title to colors, standards, and guidons of demobilized organizations of the Army remains with the U.S. Government.

[B229]

Unit colors and guidons are not returned to Philadelphia, since they are historical property they go to the Center of Military History and I believe there current storage facility is located somewhere in Maryland.

 

They are stored at Anniston, AL on the depot. No pile of flags, however. All are properly stored to maintain them.

[bheskett]

Very cool information. I would still like to snop around and check some of these out. Do the National Guard flags go there as well, or do they stay with the states?

[flyer333555]

Bles-

 

The following is from Army Regulations 840-10, an Army pamphlet dealing with the different Standards, flags, and similar items. This pamphlet has already been referenced by Ehren.

 

Para 10–5. Disposition of flags and guidons

a. Demobilized organizations.

(1) The Secretary of the Army has the authority to dispose of colors, standards, and guidons of demobilized Army organizations as follows:

( a ) Those brought into federal service by the Army National Guard of a State will be returned to that State upon request of its Governor.

( b ) Those that cannot be returned under (a) above may, upon request of its Governor, be sent to the State that, as determined by the Secretary of the Army, furnished the majority of members of the organization when it was formed.

( c ) Those that cannot be returned or sent under ( a ) and ( b ) above will be delivered to ARSO for such national use as the Secretary of the Army may direct.

 

So the National Guard flags may go there, but if a Governor request them, they could be sent to the state if the SecArmy approves it.

 

AR 840-10 dated 1998 link here.

 

Take care.

[boonicootza]

I would like to see one the older flags up close to see the work on it. They must be fantastic peices of embroidery.

 

Here are some close up pictures of the embroidery. Amazing work, the flag is embroidered on both sides, on a single sheet of material.

 

 

 

 

Not all flags are returned, 2nd Engineer Battalion burn their flag...

 

[AK101]

As mentioned above, SGMs and Unit commanders have been known to end up with a set of the Colors.

 

Can they expect a DOD swat team to recover them?

[Darktrooper]

What are the rules concerning a custom made guidon like you can get off of ebay?

[atb]

Those are not government property. Only Federally issued flags, colors, standards and guidons remain the property of the Army. I suppose they may be unit property if unit funds were used to have them made. Many units have duplicates made if the wish to present something to the CO or whoever. Korea is a good place to have them made. Issued colors of inactive units are stored by the Army. Upon request, historic and or obsolete colors may also be issued to units for display, but the units pay for any needed restoration and conservation and the framing for display. Army museums may also be issued old colors.

[ehrentitle]

As mentioned above, SGMs and Unit commanders have been known to end up with a set of the Colors.

 

Can they expect a DOD swat team to recover them?

 

To repeat what I said in Post #2 - "Flags and guidons remain the property of the US Government and if there is no proof that it was declared excess, the US Army Center of Military History will employ the assistance of law enforcement to retrieve what it considers historically significant flags. That's not saying they have the time or resources to go after every flag and guidon that's ever walked out the gate of an Army post."