Ploesti Raider Medal Grouping

[GIKyle]

Since I've been privileged to see everyone else's great things, I thought I'd share some stuff I've collected the last few years.

 

Start off with the medals of SSG Edmond H. Smith. He was a waist gunner aboard B-24 42-40753 EAGER EAGLE piloted by Lt. Lllyod Hughes, who received the MOH on the Ploesti mission. SSG Hughes was one of two who survived the planes crash after clearing the target area. There are photos in Black Sunday: Ploesti of Hughes' aircraft going down in a ball of fire- It is one of only two MOH actions ever caught on film. Was wondering if anyone knows where I could get some better copies of those pictures?

 

Have the four medals: Wrap brooch DSC, DFC, and Air Medal, Slot-brooch PH. PB gunner wings then the other one is the remnants of a bracelet. If anyone wants more pictures by all means let me know. Citation is the original and dated 16 Sep 43- Even notes that he was still MIA, and not declared a POW yet.

 

[CNY Militaria]

Thats an awesome group there! Thanks for showing! I'd be interested in seeing more closeups when you get a chance.

 

Thanks!

Justin

[KASTAUFFER]

Since I've been privileged to see everyone else's great things, I thought I'd share some stuff I've collected the last few years.

 

Start off with the medals of SSG Edmond H. Smith. He was a waist gunner aboard B-24 42-40753 EAGER EAGLE piloted by Lt. Lllyod Hughes, who received the MOH on the Ploesti mission. SSG Hughes was one of two who survived the planes crash after clearing the target area. There are photos in Black Sunday: Ploesti of Hughes' aircraft going down in a ball of fire- It is one of only two MOH actions ever caught on film. Was wondering if anyone knows where I could get some better copies of those pictures?

 

Have the four medals: Wrap brooch DSC, DFC, and Air Medal, Slot-brooch PH. PB gunner wings then the other one is the remnants of a bracelet. If anyone wants more pictures by all means let me know. Citation is the original and dated 16 Sep 43- Even notes that he was still MIA, and not declared a POW yet.

 

Are any of the medals named or numbered ? The DFC looks like it might be a USN contract medal since it has a wrap brooch . If the medals were awarded to his NOK while he was in MIA/POW status , they should be named and also be hand engraved. I do have a group to a POW held by the Romanians and his medals are numbered , but not named , because he received them in Oct 1944 in Italy after the Romanians surrendered to the Allies.

 

Kurt

[GIKyle]

Here is a closeup of the citation and the medals. None are named or numbered. The DFC is definitely of USN thickness and frosted, but its what came with the grouping. I'm honestly not sure when he was awarded these, only that he was liberated in 1944 along with most other Raiders. If you want any others pictures, just ask- still trying to figure out the best file size so the pictures are seeable.

 

Kyle

 

1-502

 

 

[Allan H.]

Kyle,

That USN DFC is one tough HUMP to get over. I am really wanting to believe that this is what you think it is, but my gut is telling me that there is something rotten here.

I don't have near the experience that Kurt and some of the other guys have here with medals, but I just can't believe that an AAF guy would have ended up with a Navy DFC. They would have never crossed lines in the supply system, and I would expect that if they did by some miracle, that other groupings would be found with the same (incorrect) USN contract DFC.

I have only ever owned one POW group. He was a DSC recipient also, but his medals were named, even though he showed up on a Red Cross report as being alive and in German custody prior to his medals being issued. I am quite certain that just about anything ever given to a Next of Kin would be named.

I don't like being the bearer of bad news here, but perhaps you can recoup some of your investment.

Allan

[KASTAUFFER]

I hate to say , but I echo Allans comments . Since he was a POW that early ( Sept 1943 ) , his folks truly would have received a named set of medals before he was released in Sept 1944 .

 

The DSC also looks like it might be re-ribbonned with a wrap brooch that may have come from a WWII Air Medal as well. If the DSC is from a wrap brooch contract , it should have been numbered .

 

Kurt

[GIKyle]

I don't know... its interesting, granted a little perturbing as well, but interesting. I knew of the USN DFC and had consulted another collector with decades more experience than I, and he said he had encountered it (I did not ask if they were direct from vets or not) and said that while we know which medals are supposed to be with USN, to the guys handing them out/ receiving them, a medal was a medal. I should have asked about wrap-DSCs too. I looked them up in a couple books, there were some that were wrap but they did not mention a number whereas elsewhere in the book whenever a medal had a number it was mentioned. Guess that gives me something to do.

 

I have a friend who was MIA/ POW in Europe 44-45. His parents were given an unnamed Air Medal in a local ceremony. Was it possible that it was not named because they knew he was alive or was it just because it was solely an Air Medal?

 

Guess I got some researching to do. he grouping came second hand so hopefully I can recover some explanations. Thanks for the help.

 

Kyle

 

1-502

[KASTAUFFER]

A medal is a medal, but the USN kept tight controls over their stocks and they didnt have enough especially in 1943 to fill their own needs . It was actually the USN/USMC that borrowed medals from the US Army and not the other way around.

 

I have seen USN wrap brooch DFC's awarded to 20th AAF crewmen very very late in the war in groups right from the family. Other than that , I have not seen any awarded to AAF personnel with airtight provenance to insure the groups had not been messed with.

 

Did your group come from the family or a dealer ? A common thing some unscrupulous people do is take an original document and add the medals to it. I have seen this done many times.

 

Sometimes POW/MIA groups will have an un-named medal , because it was in the soldiers personal effects and was mailed home in a special carton from the Kansas City QM depot after it arrived from overseas . Sometimes you will see both a named and an un-named Air Medal in a group because the family received the un-named one from KCQD and a named one was issued from the PQMD and presented in person sometimes in a ceremony.

 

 

Kurt

[tom2001]

You know, when I have questions about the authenticity of a group posted here, I usually sit back and watch the responses. I hate to be the bearer of bad news.

 

But in this case, I'll echo the postings of Allan and Kurt. Everything they said is correct. Yes, there are a lot of what-if's and exceptions to rules when it comes to WWII awards, but here I'd definitely say "put together".

 

Don't kill the messenger!! :-)

[GIKyle]

Thanks all for the input. Won't get to see the fella I got this from till November. Any thoughts on what to do with everything? Also, how many copies of the individual citations were made? I would imagine only to the awardee and to the unit correct? Seems odd that those things wouldn't stay together but families value different things I suppose.

 

Kyle

 

1-502

[bobgee]

I'll chime in and say I agree with everything that has been said here. I suggest you immediately contact the person who you got this 'grouping' from..............make the points as offerred here......and ask for your money back.

Good Luck.....Bobgee

[KASTAUFFER]

Thanks all for the input. Won't get to see the fella I got this from till November. Any thoughts on what to do with everything? Also, how many copies of the individual citations were made? I would imagine only to the awardee and to the unit correct? Seems odd that those things wouldn't stay together but families value different things I suppose.

 

Kyle

 

1-502

 

That is its an " it all depends question " . I had a group one time that had an award booklet with it that had a copy of every citation awarded that day in the book. It was mimeographed and stapeled together . If someone wanted to they could have removed the staples and all of a sudden you have a bunch of indiviual citations to different people.

 

I have seen groups with 1 citation, and sometimes I have seen some with 4-5 ( onionskins ) .

 

Kurt

[vicjoy1945]

Hey Guys,

 

I haven't posted in awhile...but...here goes...

 

Ditto on the comments posted here. There's a lot of "what ifs" to justify the medals in the grouping...that's not to say the vet himself may have picked up the medals much later on...but who knows...and the selling price should reflect these discrepanicies...i.e. the ole "sum of the parts" rule.

 

That said...I've seen a number of thick planchett/slot brooch DFCs awarded to Air Corp vets in the ETO. Many times these seem to be with 15th AF vets and I've seen them engraved with name, bomb squadron, and bomb group on the back. My guess would that these were issued towards the end of the war and/or shortly afterwards.

 

Thanks,

 

Vic

[KASTAUFFER]

That said...I've seen a number of thick planchett/slot brooch DFCs awarded to Air Corp vets in the ETO. Many times these seem to be with 15th AF vets and I've seen them engraved with name, bomb squadron, and bomb group on the back. My guess would that these were issued towards the end of the war and/or shortly afterwards.

 

Hey Vic,

 

I have seen that type as well, but they have been the slot brooch version, not the wrap brooch version. I have only seen the wrap borrch version awarded to 20th AAF personnel.

 

Kurt

[Guest driver]

I am a niece of 2nd Lt. Lloyd Herbert Hughes, known as Pete to family and friends. Pete was a Medal of Honor recipient. My web site on Pete is

Lloyd "Pete" Herbert Hughes

 

This is what I have on Staff Sgt. Edmond H. Smith

(1920 census, 1930 census, enlistment record and prisoner of war record)

 

Additionally, this has recently cropped up on the Yahoo! group page of "Tidal Wave"

Letter from Ronald L. Helder

 

Please note that I cannot vouch for its authenticity, but according to Ronald L. Helder, Pete's co-pilot, the plane was nicknamed "Ole Kickapoo." This is from a letter that Ronald wrote his "Folks" on 31 Jul 1943 - the day before the Ploesti raid in which both Pete and Ronald died and Edmond H. Smith survived.

 

I would appreciate it if anyone can provide sources of information that I don't already have on Pete and anyone of the Crew of the Ole Kickapoo

 

R. A. Jordan

[arrow1]

Hello

 

Throughout my research I have interviewed the other survivor SSGT Hoff, however after the war Smith

was barely in contact with someone and his traces are lost

 

Alex K

 

Rumania Campaigns Historian