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Any idea which of these two ANGUS & COOTE Service Pilot badge might be real?


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#1 CliffP

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 09:32 PM

:unsure:
Here are two ANGUS & COOTE Service Pilot wing badges currently being offer on eBay.
One on them may have actually have been made during World War II.
Can anyone tell for sure which one it might be?
:think:
Badge #1_a, 1_b
- or -
Badge #2_a, 2_b

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#2 B-17Guy

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 10:58 PM

You are much more of an expert then I am Cliff.
I will say though, I don't like the lower wing (2).
Hard to tell on wing (1) with only the photos. but it might be ok.
Like I say, you know more then me, I am just a student of wings and
don't have an A&C 'S' wing in my collection to compare it to, just a pilot wing.

Best, John

#3 Leatherwringer

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:55 AM

still a newbie myself.....but I like the looks of #2

but I am probably blinded by the hallmark

#4 pfrost

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 04:34 AM

I think I figured out the tells. Number 1 is the good one? Two is the repop. But I suspect that they will figure out the problem and fix it so that you can't tell the two apart as quickly anymore.

Patrick

#5 Paul C.

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 04:59 AM

Number 1 looks like the real one

#6 bschwartz

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 05:15 AM

I would vote for #1 as well. In my experience the WW2 era strikes aren't nearly as clean as the repros. There is usually some left over material on the back usually near the tips of the wings or near the center of the shield. On the pilot wings it's not unusual to find a little extra metal on the lower right of the front of the shield as well.

#7 LuftStalg1

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 06:44 AM

Wow, reading the response so far I am shocked! As someone that doesn’t collect wings I would have picked the # 2 wing because it looks to have much more crisp of a striking. :crying: I would not have given it a second thought that it was too nice of a striking! Great pop quiz! :twothumbup:

#8 Jack's Son

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 06:58 AM

At first glance it's tough to find, but once you spot it, it's like the rabbits head. ;)
#1 is the good one.

#9 B-17Guy

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 09:40 AM

Wow, reading the response so far I am shocked! As someone that doesn’t collect wings I would have picked the # 2 wing because it looks to have much more crisp of a striking. :crying: I would not have given it a second thought that it was too nice of a striking! Great pop quiz! :twothumbup:


That's what actually ropes in a lot the the buyer's on ebay. A&C wings are actually supposed kind of rough. Some seller's on ebay seem to have a mix
of good and bad wings for sale. I think many just don't know the difference, or don't care.

See previous thread-

http://www.usmilitar...d...t=0&start=0

I personally lean toward liking the top wing, but the pics are low res. Hi res pics would help.

Best, John

#10 mshaw

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 11:20 AM

The ebay seller with the questionable service pilot wing also has an A & C Liaison and Pilot wing that are suspect as well. I never like to see several rare wings being sold together by the same ebay seller. I always treat that as a red flag. I've watched his auctions before and he always seems to have the rare stuff up there. A while back it was Wallace Bishop and K.G. Luke.

#11 CliffP

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 12:25 PM

The ebay seller with the questionable service pilot wing also has an A & C Liaison and Pilot wing that are suspect as well. I never like to see several rare wings being sold together by the same ebay seller. I always treat that as a red flag. I've watched his auctions before and he always seems to have the rare stuff up there. A while back it was Wallace Bishop and K.G. Luke.

;)

Yes, and he was the stinker :devil: that prompted the quiz.
Congratulations to every one who nailed badge number 2.

:twothumbup:

#12 Leatherwringer

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 12:40 PM

;)

Yes, and he was the stinker :devil: that prompted the quiz.
Congratulations to every one who nailed badge number 2.

:twothumbup:


dooh.....I am not going to buy any wings off the 'bay till I know what to look for.....
I am sure I can do just as well here without the worry!!

#13 WINGS-PATCHES

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 03:50 PM

:unsure:
Here are two ANGUS & COOTE Service Pilot wing badges currently being offer on eBay.
One on them may have actually have been made during World War II.
Can anyone tell for sure which one it might be?
:think:
Badge #1_a, 1_b
- or -
Badge #2_a, 2_b



You posted my 100% correct A&C wing holding it up to some scrutiny entirely without my permission nor with an attribution. At the very least you could have had the simple decency and courtesy to inform people from whom this rare and correct badge might be acquired.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I seem to recall you recently took a potshot at me on this site, confusing me with a less meticulous seller who also sold some less than perfectly authenticated items from the same collection. Slurs seem to come easily to you, try balancing the karma next time. You may be a wing aficionado but when it comes to basic manners you are obviously a rank amateur. Ebay seller: WINGS-PATCHES

#14 KurtA

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 03:59 PM

You posted my 100% correct A&C wing holding it up to some scrutiny entirely without my permission nor with an attribution. At the very least you could have had the simple decency and courtesy to inform people from whom this rare and correct badge might be acquired.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I seem to recall you recently took a potshot at me on this site, confusing me with a less meticulous seller who also sold some less than perfectly authenticated items from the same collection. Slurs seem to come easily to you, try balancing the karma next time. You may be a wing aficionado but when it comes to basic manners you are obviously a rank amateur. Ebay seller: WINGS-PATCHES

Simple solution. Don't list fakes as being original. The crisply struck hallmark variety of this wing is a well known fake.

Edited by KurtA, 13 October 2010 - 03:59 PM.


#15 CliffP

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 05:08 PM

You posted my 100% correct A&C wing holding it up to some scrutiny entirely without my permission nor with an attribution. At the very least you could have had the simple decency and courtesy to inform people from whom this rare and correct badge might be acquired.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I seem to recall you recently took a potshot at me on this site, confusing me with a less meticulous seller who also sold some less than perfectly authenticated items from the same collection. Slurs seem to come easily to you, try balancing the karma next time. You may be a wing aficionado but when it comes to basic manners you are obviously a rank amateur. Ebay seller: WINGS-PATCHES


Consider the expression, ”Make sure brain and eyeballs are in gear before putting foot in mouth." :lol:

It was a simple quiz and most folks were able to determine that it was your badge #1 that was 100% legitimate.

:think: Go over the quiz again sir, it was badge #2 that everybody correctly nailed as being a restrike.

Oh and for the record we are not here to promote specific products for you or any other vendor who advertises on eBay, nor must we first seek permission to talk about them. This is an open forum about wing badge collecting and one of the nicest aspects about it is that it allows us to discuss and expand our knowledge of the hobby with out any restrictions from bias, outside influences such as a dealer with a chip on his shoulder.

-cp

#16 Jack's Son

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 05:29 PM

WOW, never a dull moment! :lol:
This forum is ANYTHING but boring.

#17 KurtA

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 05:42 PM

Simple solution. Don't list fakes as being original. The crisply struck hallmark variety of this wing is a well known fake.

I thought #2 was the plagerized/unattributed wing, so I'll retract my "advice."
For the record, one characteristic I've noticed about original examples of this type wing is that they tend to have a wierd, almost greenish finish. Just like #1 above (which is currently being offered on Ebay under seller Wings-Patches) and one I found in a flea market junk box years ago. The fakes have a very nice toned silver appearance. They really look far superior to the originals.
Kurt

#18 WINGS-PATCHES

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 06:36 PM

Consider the expression, ”Make sure brain and eyeballs are in gear before putting foot in mouth." :lol:

It was a simple quiz and most folks were able to determine that it was your badge #1 that was 100% legitimate.

:think: Go over the quiz again sir, it was badge #2 that everybody correctly nailed as being a restrike.

Oh and for the record we are not here to promote specific products for you or any other vendor who advertises on eBay, nor must we first seek permission to talk about them. This is an open forum about wing badge collecting and one of the nicest aspects about it is that it allows us to discuss and expand our knowledge of the hobby with out any restrictions from bias, outside influences such as a dealer with a chip on his shoulder.

-cp


How pathetic. You're not even decent enough to apologize when you are wrong. It wasn't about "legal rights", about which I am certain I am more familiar than you, it was about simple courtesy. Don't bother replying, I won't be reading anything else you post, you've shown your true colors and they ain't pretty. Go play with your wings.

#19 mshaw

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 08:14 PM

How pathetic. You're not even decent enough to apologize when you are wrong. It wasn't about "legal rights", about which I am certain I am more familiar than you, it was about simple courtesy. Don't bother replying, I won't be reading anything else you post, you've shown your true colors and they ain't pretty. Go play with your wings.



If you don't want wings you are selling on ebay discussed, you should sell them in a private auction. We discuss ebay wings on here ALL THE TIME! As a matter of fact Cliff and the other veteran wing collectors use the fakes on ebay (sometimes I think they outnumber the originals three to one)to educate the rest of us on what to look for.

#20 hawk3370

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 08:56 AM

If you don't want wings you are selling on ebay discussed, you should sell them in a private auction. We discuss ebay wings on here ALL THE TIME! As a matter of fact Cliff and the other veteran wing collectors use the fakes on ebay (sometimes I think they outnumber the originals three to one)to educate the rest of us on what to look for.



Mshaw,
I concur with you. I would think that wings-patches would be pleased that such an authority on wings would have selected his example as the original. If he or anyone else can find a better authority on US wings than Cliff then I wish they would let the rest of us know who that may be so we can learn from them as well. And as you have stated above the originals are outnumbered three to one by the fakes, I have a tendency to disagree with that I think the number of fakes is much higher as compared to the originals. Especially in the WW1 area where we find that 9 out of every ten are boggus.

Terry

#21 Paul S

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 10:12 AM

Good Grief, Wings-Patches. Your wing is the one Cliff points out as a good one. Why the rudeness? I might like to take a shot at buying your wing, but I'm not so sure I would want to deal with you.

PS

#22 pfrost

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 10:30 AM

Good Grief, Wings-Patches. Your wing is the one Cliff points out as a good one. Why the rudeness? I might like to take a shot at buying your wing, but I'm not so sure I would want to deal with you.

PS


To be fair, Wings-Patches has taken his share of attacks based on his auctions, both on this forum and others. I recall reading a fair amount of bruising posts on threads discussing some of the higher end (and sometimes questionable) patches that he was selling.

To be fair the other way, I also recall that members of this forum have also stepped in to support some of the items being sold by Wings-Patches as well.

I have never bought anything from his auctions, but I know some people who have, and they were always very positive about this dealer.

Frankly, a better educated collector and historically accurate and well-reasoned discussion of these type of wings will improve the quality of your auction. In my opinion, it is the uninformed, ill-advised and undereducated collectors that allow the repro artists and their ilk the ability to destroy the hobby by muddying up the field and raising doubt and uncertainty when you try to sell things like the Angus and Coote wings. Better educated and informed collectors that know what to look for will recognize quality vintage items and keep the prices up.

Also, a bit of civility all the way around couldn't possibly hurt. :thumbsup:

Patrick

#23 John Cooper

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 09:51 PM

Gentleman - there seems to be a bit a friction here driven by our collective passion for militaria specifically wings in this case. The wing "type" in question has been a topic for sometime due to the flood of perfect examples that can be found today from a few core sellers. I would like to suggest we virtually shake hands and put this behind us.

At this juncture the wing that Wings & Patches is selling has been given the thumbs up by several folks and that can only help in the long run. Thanks for reading this post and lets be civil.

PS - all to often posts on forums can be mis-understood and then threads become flame wars. Lets try to keep that in mind and stick to the facts as we know them and be open to others opinions.

Regards,

John


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