30 replies to this topic

[FTrooper]

Actually later in 1942 they redid the TO&E again I was told (Sept. I think) to where they eliminated the carbine in the rifle squads in favor of the M1, as soon as I get my scanner fixed (or buy a new one) I will scan some pictures I have of BAR assistants in S. France with the 3rd ID and 36th ID wearing M1937 BAR belts, and carrying M1's with ammo in just the regular cotton bandoleers (and one guy has the three pocket grenade carrier hanging off his belt too).

As per unit SOP, that varies greatly and I was just going on what was supposed to happen. (and we know how well THAT works out on combat) Ha Ha Ha! Many units got rid of carbines very early as they realized the could increase the squad/platoon firepower significantly and simplify logistics (thus why the official TO&E probably changed). In N. Africa almost every officer and Sgt. can be seen with a M1928A1 and almost NO carbines are seen. In Sicily you still seem them but you see more carbines showing up (especially in the newly arrived 45th Division).

Also, the issue of .45's to airborne, is seen most clearly in pictures stateside. Seems once training started in England, individual SOP's started to be developed, thus you will see SMG's in Paratrooper Rifle Squads where they shouldn't be.

Finally, that is great info about the Thompsons carried in C-47's! Never knew that...seems kind of hopeful that a single M1A1 will fend off a FW-190!!! LOL!

Chris Fischer

Edited by FTrooper, 20 September 2009 - 06:11 PM.

[FTrooper]

http://www.usmilitar...d...rrier&st=20

in this thread you will see the best picture of a BAR belt won by an assistant. You can see the M1 over his shoulder and the BAR gunner just ahead of him. The assistant also has the three pocket carrier for grenades and two canteens all on the left side of the belt. Lord only knows what he also has on the right side!!!

Chris Fischer

[APO472]

Also, the issue of .45's to airborne, is seen most clearly in pictures stateside. Seems once training started in England, individual SOP's started to be developed, thus you will see SMG's in Paratrooper Rifle Squads where they shouldn't be.

Really? Which units? I would LOVE to see those.

Jake Powers

[APO472]

Also, the issue of .45's to airborne, is seen most clearly in pictures stateside. Seems once training started in England, individual SOP's started to be developed, thus you will see SMG's in Paratrooper Rifle Squads where they shouldn't be.

Really? Which units? I would LOVE to see those.

Jake Powers

Here is the OFFICIAL TO& E from the 506th PIR. These are the ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS, Signed by Col Sink. The ONLY reference to a 1911 is on page one and it is for OFFICERS!. Hope this helps.

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Edited by APO472, 20 September 2009 - 07:13 PM.

[APO472]

Here is the OFFICIAL TO& E from the 50th PIR. These are the ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS, Signed by Col Sink. The ONLY reference to a 1911 is on page one and it is for OFFICERS!. Hope this helps.

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[FTrooper]

Also, the issue of .45's to airborne, is seen most clearly in pictures stateside. Seems once training started in England, individual SOP's started to be developed, thus you will see SMG's in Paratrooper Rifle Squads where they shouldn't be.

Really? Which units? I would LOVE to see those.

Jake Powers

Mostly the early units. I'll try to dig them up and scan them (again when I can get access to a scanner, UGH). You will also see quite a bit of .45 M1911's in the hands of the 509th in N. Africa, the 82nd in N. Africa and Sicily, and the 503rd in the Pacific. Most of these units organized and trained under the T/O 7-37 (Feb. 17th 1942 I think), which provided a M1911 to each man (505 total in an Parachute Infantry Battalion). The T/O adopted in Feb. 1944 did away with general issue of the M1911A1 (don't have the number for that one handy). After looking over the few sources I have here, I too note VERY few in the 101st, even in 1943. SO I have to wonder if the Feb. 1944 T/O was not just reaffirming the most current practice.

There is a great picture on page 7 of "US Special Forces of World War Two" by Leroy Thompson showing men of the 501st all wearing M1918 Cavalry belts and retrieving their M-1 from the weapons bundle (like the Germans).

The other book I WISH I had for you I am not even sure of the name. It was the official 82nd Airborne pictorial history from WW2, my local library had a copy I would spend hours looking over it when I was growing up. Sadly I have not seen that book in 20 years and live 300 miles away from there if it was even still on the shelf...but you see alot of the M1918 Cavalry belts and .45 pouches worn in N. Africa and Sicily (but they seem to dwindle in Italy and Normandy).

Chris

Edited by FTrooper, 20 September 2009 - 07:14 PM.

[FTrooper]

WOW! An actually regimental TO&E...very nice!!! Please note I am referencing the official ARMY ones (no I am NOT trying to argue with you)..but as has been stated and your document proves, individual units modified things to fit themselves. There will be as many variations in TO&E as there are units in the army!

Again, that is a GREAT item and I am very envious of you!!! I wish I could find those for my unit! :-(

Chris Fischer

[APO472]

WOW! An actually regimental TO&E...very nice!!! Please note I am referencing the official ARMY ones (no I am NOT trying to argue with you)..but as has been stated and your document proves, individual units modified things to fit themselves. There will be as many variations in TO&E as there are units in the army!

Again, that is a GREAT item and I am very envious of you!!! I wish I could find those for my unit! :-(

Chris Fischer

Glad you like the TO&E. It is actually 10 or so pages long and details every possible position in the Regiment.

Edited by APO472, 21 September 2009 - 05:24 AM.

[FTrooper]

Again, I am envious. I know such unit (regiment and battalion level) TO&E's and/or SOP's existed for many units! While the official Army wide TO&E's are a nice START point, units did what they felt they needed based on personal experiences and specific mission assignments. I wish I could find some unit specific ones for the 91st Cavalry Recon Squadron as I know from talking to the vets, that they did alot of stuff that wasn't "official" army wide.

Chris Fischer
F-Troop

[FTrooper]

Speaking of TO&E's not being perfect and something mentioned earlier in this thread about BAR assistants wearing the M1937 Belts as Bandoleers. I just acquired an original Feb. 1944 TO&E for a Rifle Company and is shows the BAR Assistant and ammo bearer being issued BOTH a M1937 BAR belt AND a M1823 dismounted cartridge belt! Seriously!

Chris Fischer
F-Troop

[glenm]

Speaking of TO&E's not being perfect and something mentioned earlier in this thread about BAR assistants wearing the M1937 Belts as Bandoleers. I just acquired an original Feb. 1944 TO&E for a Rifle Company and is shows the BAR Assistant and ammo bearer being issued BOTH a M1937 BAR belt AND a M1823 dismounted cartridge belt! Seriously!

Chris Fischer
F-Troop

That's because the Assistant and Ammo Bearer had a Rifle Belt for parades (when they fell in as Riflemen) and the BAR belt (with bandoliers for Rifle ammo) for use in the field.

Didn't that get mentioned to you before in the other thread, Chris? If not, there's your answer there for that one.

Cheers,
Glen.