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332nd Infantry 1st Cl artilleryman's coat on eBay

Started by Gil Sanow , Apr 13 2007 07:18 AM

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#1 Gil Sanow

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 07:18 AM

Let's hear some comments on this one!

Does anyone have any pix of REAL 332nd patches to share?

http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem

#2 cwnorma

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 01:39 PM

Thats just wrong in so many ways...

Let's hear some comments on this one!

Does anyone have any pix of REAL 332nd patches to share?

http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem



#3 Gil Sanow

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 03:54 PM

Thats just wrong in so many ways...


Why don't you attempt a list? It will be interesting to see if we see the same.

Do you have a real 332nd to share?

G

#4 Dave

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 04:56 PM

Here's the one (real) one I have in my collection. This one came from a fellow forum member (thanks!) http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

Dave

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#5 Gil Sanow

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 05:05 PM

Here's the one (real) one I have in my collection. This one came from a fellow forum member (thanks!) http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

Dave


And here's another.

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#6 baker502

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 06:40 PM

heres a dumb question, was there a version done in non bullion/metalic thread?

#7 Gil Sanow

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 08:23 PM

heres a dumb question, was there a version done in non bullion/metalic thread?


Not to my knowledge. Does anyone else know?

#8 baker502

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 08:31 PM

Not to my knowledge. Does anyone else know?


Gil,
I kind of like the contruction of the patch, it looks old, and that's what raised my question about the 332nd patch only being rendered in bullion. If you were a faker wouldn't you want it to be like the others, and not draw attention, to some obscure variation? Just my 2 cents Paul

Edited by baker502, 13 April 2007 - 08:34 PM.


#9 doyler

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 08:35 PM

I have not encountered a embroidered version.Bullion seems to be the norm.I have only seen 7 ID'd uniforms and a couple of loose patches and they were all bullion.The big red flag to me besides the embroidered lion is the way the piece is machine sewn together.It just didnt give me a warm feeling.Looks like some stuff a dealer from Missouri was turning out to the market a few years ago.
RON

#10 Shenkursk

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 09:07 PM

Ron:

Speaking as a dealer from Missouri... let's be specific! If you are thinking of the fellow who has a ton of patches and discs on ebay, normally shot on a green background - that is not me. I can't recall his user ID off the top of my head, but a quick look at the WWI section should turn his stuff up without too much searching.

To answer Paul's question, I have owned 13 of the 332 uniforms and several loose patches, and have examined quite a few more. That is nowhere near a big enough sample to draw any firm conclusions, but for what it is worth they all appeared to be very clearly made in the same place, using the same construction technique and materials.

The 332 guys were VERY proud of their insignia. They were made in Milan, and the guys knew at the time that they were getting the most attractive shoulder insignia in the whole AEF. I would be very surprised if one of them would have been happy with anything less than the standard heavy bullion embroidered insignia. I have seen variations on how the red background was trimmed and how it was sewn to the sleeve, but the lions are all very clearly from the same litter. (Only very slight variations.)

#11 Shenkursk

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 09:11 PM

Here is a RPPC image of a soldier wearing his 'triple patch' 332 coat. We used this for a catalog cover many moons ago, and in spite of massive trouble with the printer on that issue, it remains one of my all-time favorites.

Posted Image

closer view of the insignia:
Posted Image

Edited by Jeff Shrader, 13 April 2007 - 09:12 PM.


#12 KurtA

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Posted 14 April 2007 - 05:31 AM

[quote name='Jeff Shrader' date='Apr 14 2007, 12:07 AM' post='27021']
Ron:

Speaking as a dealer from Missouri... let's be specific! If you are thinking of the fellow who has a ton of patches and discs on ebay, normally shot on a green background - that is not me. I can't recall his user ID off the top of my head, but a quick look at the WWI section should turn his stuff up without too much searching.
Possibly we're speaking of the guy whose ebay name is ALPINEMIL. If you want an excellent tutorial on what kind of patch "not to buy", check his stuff out. I totally cringe when I see what unsuspecting collectors pay for his items.
Kurt

Edited by KurtA, 14 April 2007 - 05:32 AM.


#13 hhbooker2

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Posted 14 April 2007 - 06:18 AM

Let's hear some comments on this one!

Does anyone have any pix of REAL 332nd patches to share?

http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem


GILBERT A. SANOW II: One like this for instance? How is Elyria this time of year? AAMUC Footlocker must have a high issue number at this time. I'll bet the museum got quite large and impressive! Do you have a website, Gil? Sarge Booker of Tujunga, California

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  • 260106354457.jpg
  • 260106354457_close_up.jpg

Edited by hhbooker2, 14 April 2007 - 06:19 AM.


#14 cwnorma

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Posted 14 April 2007 - 08:44 AM

Gil,

Sorry I didn't have so much time last night but here is what pops out immediately:

1. Uniform is early olive color with rimless eagle buttons. In itself not a problem, but it leads me to believe the patch was added. Typically, WW1 era cotton coats are tan with rimmed eagle buttons.

2. Uniform has a Coast Artillery Rate: Why would a National Army (draftees) infantry unit like the 332 Infantry have a Regular Army Coast Artilleryman amongst their ranks? Yes, I know there was no distinction between the National Army, National Guard, and Regular Army by the end of the war, but still, why a coast artilleryman?

3. Collar Brass do not Match: Looks like one or both were add ons.

4. That patch looks terrible: Maybe it is good, but I wouldn't have it in my collection.

It looks to me like someone took a nice early coast artillery coat and salted it with an exotic patch


Chris

Why don't you attempt a list? It will be interesting to see if we see the same.

Do you have a real 332nd to share?

G



#15 cwnorma

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Posted 14 April 2007 - 09:43 AM

Gang,

Here are some pictures I have gathered. I do not own any of these uniforms or patches.

However, based on all that I have examined, and like Jeff says, I doubt anyone has examined enough to truly be an expert on these, I have developed my own opinions about what is good in a 332 or AAS Italy patch:

332R.jpg

This first patch matches very closely the patches on Gil and Jeff's uniforms

ItalyAAS1.jpg ltalyAAS.JPG

Here are two Army Ambulance Service patches that also share distinct similarities with the details of Jeff and Gil's uniforms. Notice the style of bullion in the "shoulder" of the lion's wing and the lion's right rear leg. They all appear to be executed using a fine bullion thread that is "tacked" down with fine yellow thread to obtain the texture/shape of the area.

332IR.JPG

Here is a patch I am not so sure about. Notice it seems to have some legitimate age to it. However, this patch, although close, exhibits distinct differences from the five above. Note that the shoulder and the right rear leg (set off by arrrows) are executed in bullion tape. Note also that the pages of the book and the face of the lion are made of a slightly different bullion cloth than the others. Finally, the lion's mane is executed in a distinctly different style of embroidery than the other five. I won't/can't go on record to say this is outright a reproduction, but it exhibits enough differences from the known originals to make me cautious.

Chris

#16 Gil Sanow

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Posted 14 April 2007 - 10:35 AM

Gang,

Here are some pictures I have gathered. I do not own any of these uniforms or patches.

However, based on all that I have examined, and like Jeff says, I doubt anyone has examined enough to truly be an expert on these, I have developed my own opinions about what is good in a 332 or AAS Italy patch:

332R.jpg

This first patch matches very closely the patches on Gil and Jeff's uniforms

ItalyAAS1.jpg ltalyAAS.JPG

Here are two Army Ambulance Service patches that also share distinct similarities with the details of Jeff and Gil's uniforms. Notice the style of bullion in the "shoulder" of the lion's wing and the lion's right rear leg. They all appear to be executed using a fine bullion thread that is "tacked" down with fine yellow thread to obtain the texture/shape of the area.

332IR.JPG

Here is a patch I am not so sure about. Notice it seems to have some legitimate age to it. However, this patch, although close, exhibits distinct differences from the five above. Note that the shoulder and the right rear leg (set off by arrrows) are executed in bullion tape. Note also that the pages of the book and the face of the lion are made of a slightly different bullion cloth than the others. Finally, the lion's mane is executed in a distinctly different style of embroidery than the other five. I won't/can't go on record to say this is outright a reproduction, but it exhibits enough differences from the known originals to make me cautious.

Chris


Very good -- I cannot disagree with any of the comments above. Let me add a bit though.

In my experience I have noticed that wartime drab cotton coats tended to fade to khaki after washing whereas the pre-war cloth tended to fade less -- it was probably because of the dyes then impored from Germany! I wonder why we couldn't get it during the war!) I suspect the eBay coat is circa 1911-12, before the rimmed buttons were adopted. I have never seen any 332nd EM coat in cotton!

I note the Ebay coat seems to have collar discs for 2/US and A(?) Infantry. The one could be correct, but the other is not. The CA PFC patch is high;ly inlikely. The patch is atrocious.

I suspect if it is legitimate at all, it is US made, after the war -- perhaps for a reunion, and prehaps cut from something else. I have a reunion armband that is embroidered felt and I have seen the insignia section cut out and sewn to a uniform.

The only legit 332nd and AAS patches I have seen were bullion. The last one shown above is a clear variation -- quite different from most that are seen. Is it legit? I will not swear it is.

Here are a few more. All are attributed.:
Front -- Mus. 2Cl. Paul Elliot(t) of Carrolton, OH (This is the one I took the
closeup of above.)
Right - 1LT Leo Bayles, Co. G. from Columbus, OH. Note he is an officer and
would have purchased his own coat.
Rear - CPT Lemuel John of Co. A from Morgantown, WV.

If anyone wants, I can take closeups of the other two, but this shot slows that they are all bullion.

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  • 134_3481__3_.JPG


#17 Shenkursk

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Posted 14 April 2007 - 11:24 AM

Gil,

Sorry I didn't have so much time last night but here is what pops out immediately:

1. Uniform is early olive color with rimless eagle buttons. In itself not a problem, but it leads me to believe the patch was added. Typically, WW1 era cotton coats are tan with rimmed eagle buttons.

2. Uniform has a Coast Artillery Rate: Why would a National Army (draftees) infantry unit like the 332 Infantry have a Regular Army Coast Artilleryman amongst their ranks? Yes, I know there was no distinction between the National Army, National Guard, and Regular Army by the end of the war, but still, why a coast artilleryman?

3. Collar Brass do not Match: Looks like one or both were add ons.

4. That patch looks terrible: Maybe it is good, but I wouldn't have it in my collection.

It looks to me like someone took a nice early coast artillery coat and salted it with an exotic patch
Chris


I would agree with Chris on all of the above except for #3. I am processing a rather large collection of collar discs at the moment, and when you lay them all out on the table it is AMAZING how many slightly different colors they actually are. Probably the political payoff bonanza of WWI - there must be three dozen different makers of these things, as those of us who have ever tried to match a disc with a nut have found out the hard way. (why would you ever make all of the screw posts a slightly different size?)

Anyway, if Joe Smith was in Company A, 134th Machine Gun Battalion, it is highly likely that his MG / Rifles / A disc and his US 134 disc were of a different maker, color, texture, appearance, etc. right from the very start. The different maker's finishes have varying degrees of resistance to wear, etc.

That's the tough thing about discs - sometimes it is just flat out impossible to know if they started out life on one particular uniform or not. If matching color is the criteria for a collector, then he is going to miss out on a ton of perfectly legitimate uniforms.

Sometimes dirt, impressions in the fabric, or matching stains / verdigris, etc. can be a positive indication, but you mess it up the minute you take the disc off to check.

Unfortunately even some of the best collectors in this hobby cannot resist the temptation to 'improve' a uniform by replacing a "US" and "Infantry" with the appropriate numbered discs. If they sell the uniform later on, there is absolutely no way to know that these discs replaced the original 'boring' discs that were on it to begin with.

I am sitting here with numbered 339th Infantry discs in the display case and plain discs on about half of my North Russia uniforms... and I completely understand the temptation to make the switch. (I will leave them as-is, though.)

Chris is right - in all probability someone took a nice Coast Artillery coat and tried to add a (rather poor) fake patch.

KURT:
That's the guy! I'm glad he uses that green background. When browsing through the gallery, it saves a lot of time by marking the listings to skip.

#18 doyler

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Posted 14 April 2007 - 12:51 PM

Ron:

Speaking as a dealer from Missouri... let's be specific! If you are thinking of the fellow who has a ton of patches and discs on ebay, normally shot on a green background - that is not me. I can't recall his user ID off the top of my head, but a quick look at the WWI section should turn his stuff up without too much searching.

To answer Paul's question, I have owned 13 of the 332 uniforms and several loose patches, and have examined quite a few more. That is nowhere near a big enough sample to draw any firm conclusions, but for what it is worth they all appeared to be very clearly made in the same place, using the same construction technique and materials.

The 332 guys were VERY proud of their insignia. They were made in Milan, and the guys knew at the time that they were getting the most attractive shoulder insignia in the whole AEF. I would be very surprised if one of them would have been happy with anything less than the standard heavy bullion embroidered insignia. I have seen variations on how the red background was trimmed and how it was sewn to the sleeve, but the lions are all very clearly from the same litter. (Only very slight variations.)


Hello Jeff,
Sorry I was not more specific.To general of a statement.Im not including you in the dealer(s)I spoke of by any means and if you remember me you will know Im sincere.Im sure we both have ran into these guys.One goes by Alpine militaria(Jack B) on ebay.The other one I spoke of had a catalog out years ago .....House of Swords.I believe we know each other from the Minneapolis show as well as the KC show in May.We also have some of the same friends and contacts and we have dealt before.Looking forward to seeing you at Johns table in Minneapolis.
RON DOYLE

#19 doyler

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Posted 14 April 2007 - 01:05 PM

As for the buttons on the uniform they dont raise a flag for me.They are the earlier rimless.I agree with Jeffs assement on collar discs.So many manufacturers.I have some in my own collection from vets in the 1970s that dont exactly match.The buttons on Gils appear to be the brown vegetable/plastic material seen on some WW1 period uniforms.Some had the metal post/shank on the back for attaching others were pierced with two holes for sewing on.RON

Edited by doyler, 14 April 2007 - 01:13 PM.


#20 cwnorma

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Posted 14 April 2007 - 01:11 PM

Jeff,

Now that I go back and read my own post, I agree; somtimes me not words so good have...

Agreed completely; mismatched collar disks in and of themselves are not an indicator that the coat is bad. In this case the difference does stand out. But if that was the only thing that caught my eye, I would certainly overlook it.

I am a professional analyst by trade, so I tend to look at things in terms of indicators and trends both of which can carry different weights. ...and like a lot of people in my profession, frequently take for granted that everyone else would reach the same conclusion the same way (or at least intuit what thoughts got me to my conclusion). Which in this case went something like this: Mis-matched collar disk? That's one indicator, but of very low weight. Really wonky looking patch? Still only one indicator, but of signifigantly higher weight. Early olive uniform with unrimed eagle buttons, one more indicator, by itself low weight. Coast Artillery rate on an Infantryman's uniform, one indicator, higher weight. Taken en-toto, to me, it all adds up to a uniform I wouldn't want. Any indicator by itself (with the exception of the patch) would probably not lead me to conclude it was bad. In this case it just added up that way.

As to the screw posts all being different, The American National Standards Institute (ANSI) was formed during WW1 to look into ways of standardizing manufacturing to speed up war production. It was ANSI that came up with the idea of nationwide standardized; threading, pipes, guages of lumber, etc. Before ANSI, manufacturers had no standard, other than their own, or as agreed upon in various trade groups, and so just made whatever they thought best for the specific application. So, the reason none of your collar disk nuts match is that standardized threads, which we take for granted today, were actually born out of efforts to improve manufacturing during WW1.

BTW, I only have one USNREF group, and it has plain collar disks.

Best wishes

Chris

I would agree with Chris on all of the above except for #3. I am processing a rather large collection of collar discs at the moment, and when you lay them all out on the table it is AMAZING how many slightly different colors they actually are. Probably the political payoff bonanza of WWI - there must be three dozen different makers of these things, as those of us who have ever tried to match a disc with a nut have found out the hard way. (why would you ever make all of the screw posts a slightly different size?)

Anyway, if Joe Smith was in Company A, 134th Machine Gun Battalion, it is highly likely that his MG / Rifles / A disc and his US 134 disc were of a different maker, color, texture, appearance, etc. right from the very start. The different maker's finishes have varying degrees of resistance to wear, etc.

That's the tough thing about discs - sometimes it is just flat out impossible to know if they started out life on one particular uniform or not. If matching color is the criteria for a collector, then he is going to miss out on a ton of perfectly legitimate uniforms.

Sometimes dirt, impressions in the fabric, or matching stains / verdigris, etc. can be a positive indication, but you mess it up the minute you take the disc off to check.

Unfortunately even some of the best collectors in this hobby cannot resist the temptation to 'improve' a uniform by replacing a "US" and "Infantry" with the appropriate numbered discs. If they sell the uniform later on, there is absolutely no way to know that these discs replaced the original 'boring' discs that were on it to begin with.

I am sitting here with numbered 339th Infantry discs in the display case and plain discs on about half of my North Russia uniforms... and I completely understand the temptation to make the switch. (I will leave them as-is, though.)




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