Jump to content


Photo

Gray Navy Hat by Knox...


  • Please log in to reply
18 replies to this topic

#1 robert60446

robert60446
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,829
  • 573 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:IL

Posted 19 May 2008 - 03:35 PM

Hi guys,
I got this Hat for eagle insignia, but I was wondering what you can tell me about this gray cover? Is the rest of the hat good? I’m asking because I don’t have a good knowledge on Navy Hats…I’m more into eagle emblems collecting…any comments are welcome.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k190/robert60446/Front.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k190/robert60446/Side.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k190/robert60446/Eagle.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k190/robert60446/Details.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k190/robert60446/Seal.jpg

#2 Lee Ragan

Lee Ragan
  • Members
    • Member ID: 97
  • 3,133 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Odessa, Texas

Posted 20 May 2008 - 05:52 AM

Nice officers hat! Looks good to me. That hat went with the working grey uniform that was used during WWII.

#3 robert60446

robert60446
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,829
  • 573 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:IL

Posted 20 May 2008 - 06:10 AM

Thanks Lee! I was worrying, because compared to other Navy hats which I had a pleasure to handle this one is in really nice shape, so I wasn't sure about it... http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

#4 doyler

doyler
  • Members
    • Member ID: 342
  • 33,740 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Under The Bridge

Posted 20 May 2008 - 07:35 AM

It looks fine to me also.The grey ones in my opinion are a little harder to find.

RON

#5 topdcnut

topdcnut
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,723
  • 1,512 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Westshore of the Midwest sea

Posted 20 May 2008 - 10:57 AM

It looks fine to me also.The grey ones in my opinion are a little harder to find.

RON

`Your hat was converted from the original which had black chin strap, black buttons and a dark bronze device. This was more than likely done by the original owner during the wearout period as the black and darkened bronze parts were very unpopular, I have even heard that on some subs the officers never made the change to the slate grey they just kept wearing the kahki's. Very nice hat just too bad the man did not keep it original.

T/Y John

#6 topdcnut

topdcnut
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,723
  • 1,512 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Westshore of the Midwest sea

Posted 20 May 2008 - 11:02 AM

Here is what mine looks like.

T/Y John

#7 topdcnut

topdcnut
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,723
  • 1,512 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Westshore of the Midwest sea

Posted 20 May 2008 - 02:06 PM

OK Here is what it looks like.

T/Y John

Attached Images

  • slate_o_cap.JPG


#8 robert60446

robert60446
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,829
  • 573 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:IL

Posted 20 May 2008 - 05:39 PM

OK Here is what it looks like.

T/Y John

Hi John,
Your hat is really minty...amazing condition! Thanks for info.

#9 sigsaye

sigsaye
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,104
  • 5,695 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bowling Green KY. USA

Posted 21 May 2008 - 07:59 PM

`Your hat was converted from the original which had black chin strap, black buttons and a dark bronze device. This was more than likely done by the original owner during the wearout period as the black and darkened bronze parts were very unpopular, I have even heard that on some subs the officers never made the change to the slate grey they just kept wearing the kahki's. Very nice hat just too bad the man did not keep it original.

T/Y John

John, This hat may not have actually been converted. The gray part is just a gray cloth cover, one of five (blue, white, khaki, gray and green) that were available to use on the same frame. When the gray uniform came out, the "fittings" such as the bronce buttons, black plastic crest for Chiefs and officers, and the black braid chin straps, were not always available. So, the normal full color insignia and brass buttons were commonly used. By the time that the accrutements for the gray uniforms were easily available, the Navy had decided to scrap the thing, so many who were using the regular items just continued to do so.

So, the reason that the vast majority of Chiefs and officers never changed to the gray uniform is that 1. It was not mandentory, 2. It was not available to most of them, 3. There were few willing to drop almost half a months pay on a uniform they did not need.

So, while the hat, by regulation was supposed to have black "fittings", since many started out life with the standard gear and lived theri intire service life with standard gear, this hat is most likely original.

Steve Hesson

Also, the gray uniform was not made mandentory. It was intended to replace the khaki uniforms of Chiefs and officers, but the logistics of getting millions of uniforms out across the entire world was enormus. The textile industry told the Navy that it simply could not produce gray, white and khaki (for all the other services) all at the same time. There just was not enough fabric produced to meet the need. The Navy had to make a choice. Since they wanted to keep the white dress uniforms, and Chiefs and officers already had khaki ( and were not pleased at the thought of haveing to go out and but new uniforms to replace perfectly good uniforms they already had, the Navy decided to leave the gray as optional and drop it in '46 or '47.

#10 robert60446

robert60446
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,829
  • 573 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:IL

Posted 22 May 2008 - 12:32 PM

Thanks Steve! Great inside on "gray" subject... http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

John, This hat may not have actually been converted. The gray part is just a gray cloth cover, one of five (blue, white, khaki, gray and green) that were available to use on the same frame. When the gray uniform came out, the "fittings" such as the bronce buttons, black plastic crest for Chiefs and officers, and the black braid chin straps, were not always available. So, the normal full color insignia and brass buttons were commonly used. By the time that the accrutements for the gray uniforms were easily available, the Navy had decided to scrap the thing, so many who were using the regular items just continued to do so.

So, the reason that the vast majority of Chiefs and officers never changed to the gray uniform is that 1. It was not mandentory, 2. It was not available to most of them, 3. There were few willing to drop almost half a months pay on a uniform they did not need.

So, while the hat, by regulation was supposed to have black "fittings", since many started out life with the standard gear and lived theri intire service life with standard gear, this hat is most likely original.

Steve Hesson

Also, the gray uniform was not made mandentory. It was intended to replace the khaki uniforms of Chiefs and officers, but the logistics of getting millions of uniforms out across the entire world was enormus. The textile industry told the Navy that it simply could not produce gray, white and khaki (for all the other services) all at the same time. There just was not enough fabric produced to meet the need. The Navy had to make a choice. Since they wanted to keep the white dress uniforms, and Chiefs and officers already had khaki ( and were not pleased at the thought of haveing to go out and but new uniforms to replace perfectly good uniforms they already had, the Navy decided to leave the gray as optional and drop it in '46 or '47.



#11 KurtA

KurtA
  • Members
    • Member ID: 322
  • 7,462 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 27 May 2008 - 05:04 PM

OK Here is what it looks like.

T/Y John

John-
Are you sure the bronze badge was intended for wear on the grey hat? I've never seen a period photo of anything but a silver/gilt badge being worn on the grey hat. I have seen photos of bronze badges on sun helmets and I figured that's what the bronze badges were for. If they intended to have a dull finish badge for the grey hat, it would seem to make more sense to have had one with black finish (which I don't think was ever manufactured).
Chiefs wore grey caps and I've never seen a bronze CPO badge.
Hopefully some 1940's uniform regs spelling all of this out will surface.
Kurt

#12 Navy Dan

Navy Dan
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,552
  • 955 posts

Posted 27 May 2008 - 05:35 PM

Great Hat and Eagle.I would be interested in the maker of the eagle it has some great detail. I hope you keep them together if not I would be interested in the hat .
Great Find
Dan

#13 sigsaye

sigsaye
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,104
  • 5,695 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bowling Green KY. USA

Posted 27 May 2008 - 08:29 PM

John-
Are you sure the bronze badge was intended for wear on the grey hat? I've never seen a period photo of anything but a silver/gilt badge being worn on the grey hat. I have seen photos of bronze badges on sun helmets and I figured that's what the bronze badges were for. If they intended to have a dull finish badge for the grey hat, it would seem to make more sense to have had one with black finish (which I don't think was ever manufactured).
Chiefs wore grey caps and I've never seen a bronze CPO badge.
Hopefully some 1940's uniform regs spelling all of this out will surface.
Kurt

Kurt, Actually, there are quite a number of period photos showing the subdued hat insignia and buttons on the gray uniforms for both Chiefs and officers. All six volumes of Jeff Warners books have these photos.

the insignia for the hats, both officer and CPO was actually "Bakelite" and not bronze. "Bronzed" insignia did exsist (basically standard metal insignia "painted" to subdue it), but was not actually intended for this uniform.

Steve Hesson

#14 robert60446

robert60446
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,829
  • 573 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:IL

Posted 28 May 2008 - 02:36 AM

Great Hat and Eagle.I would be interested in the maker of the eagle it has some great detail. I hope you keep them together if not I would be interested in the hat .
Great Find
Dan

Dan,
Thanks but they are staying together - i have already ordered display head... http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

#15 Navy Dan

Navy Dan
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,552
  • 955 posts

Posted 28 May 2008 - 10:48 AM

Dan,
Thanks but they are staying together - i have already ordered display head... http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

GREAT i love to see things stay together but I would like to no the maker of the eagle?
Thanks Dan

#16 topdcnut

topdcnut
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,723
  • 1,512 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Westshore of the Midwest sea

Posted 28 May 2008 - 05:23 PM

Hey guys,

I have several and have seen many of these, the first one I actually found has given to a boy by his grandfather and it was identical to a standard one except for the bronze color although I do not recall if it was Balfor or Gemsco and two piece marked sterling. I will be picturing two lated that have no makers marks although the one from the hat is two piece but (soldered togather) and the other darker one is the standard two piece ariangment seen on these devices to the present day. I believe that once the mfr realized these were the standard the detailing on the dies was changed to show a cleaner detail on the eagle because the dark bronze hid fine detail were gold and silver enhansed fine detail. I have never seen a full size bakalite device but know they exist and have seen many small ones for the overseas cap (sorry I will not use the slang terms for this uniform item) and have seen several full size devices for sale stamped out of a single piece of metal. I have only seen one CPO hat device in dark bronze but it was about 10 yrs ago on ebay and the seller listed it as WW1 but it had all the attributes of a WW2 anchor unfortunatly this was before I had any clue as to what slate grey was and have not seen even one since. As to the tropical helmet I have found nothing to indicate that anything but the small device was worn on it with the one small exception is the fact that Nimitz is seen wearing a trop helmet with a large device on it, an interesting side note is that although Nimitz approved the change to slate grey I have seen no evidence todate showing that he ever wore anything but Kahki.

I don't know much but this is what I have seen, V/R John

#17 robert60446

robert60446
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,829
  • 573 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:IL

Posted 28 May 2008 - 05:23 PM

GREAT i love to see things stay together but I would like to no the maker of the eagle?
Thanks Dan

Hi Dan,
I have unscrewed eagle from the hat in order to see maker, but it is unmarked... http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/crying.gif

#18 KurtA

KurtA
  • Members
    • Member ID: 322
  • 7,462 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 May 2008 - 06:08 PM

I just checked-out my large size "bronze" badge. It's marked sterling, is two piece and has three wire prongs on the reverse, rather than a screw post.
Great thread. I've always been confused with these gray uniforms. This thread helped clear up a few thing for me. Now I need to find one of those black bakelite badges!
Kurt

#19 topdcnut

topdcnut
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,723
  • 1,512 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Westshore of the Midwest sea

Posted 28 May 2008 - 06:53 PM

My bronze devices

Attached Images

  • bronze_f.JPG
  • bronze_fb.JPG



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users