Dirk Posted December 10, 2007 Share #1 Posted December 10, 2007 This thread was started in response to a discussion concerning the types of fur caps worn by marines in China. Initially, I posted a few images with text, but felt the need to revise the thread to include a few new pictures I recently came across. Hopefully this will spark some discussion from those who either possess such caps or have done research on them. Originally, when I started this thread I believed the fur hat was exclusive to north China....worn only by marines assigned to Peking and later Tientsin/Chinwangto. But I remembered an image from a thread on the WAF that is labeled "Marines landing under a British flag Shanghai" that clearly shows marines wearing fur hats....as well as images of Butlers' men wearing them in Tientsin c 1927-28. So that required me to rethink some assumptions. I think there is still a lot to discuss and debate about these hats, but here is what I got............ Fur hats with a large folding fur peak and ear flaps that tie at the top were worn long before Marines came to China. Images of similar hats worn by US Army troops out west in the 1880's have been printed in several publications. In addition, this style of headgear appears equally common in Russia (and Russian hunters in Manchuria) and with locals in north China. I've also seen images of British Legation Guards in Peking wearing identical hats as well, and they may have worn them several years before the Marines first arrived. I can't say with any certainty this hat was initially an issue item from the states or locally made in China. My belief it was a locally obtained item is based upon conversations I had with several China Marines who served prior to WWII. I can say though based upon discussions with several of these men, the style of hat did change slightly over the years and could even vary during a single Marines tour in China. This first photo shows a future Commandant wearing his hat c 1908-1910. This is the earliest image of such a hat worn by a marine in China I've found to date. This style, without EGA is "fuller" then those seen in the late 1930's. From other pictures I've seen, this style was worn through the early 1920's. (photo courtesy of the Alfred Grey Center) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share #2 Posted January 5, 2008 The circled marine here from a few years later shows a hat similar to the the first image and again reminds me of the type associated with those soldiers stationed out in the northern parts of the US in the mid-1880s. Also the hat appears "fuller" with a lot of the fur showing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share #3 Posted January 5, 2008 Here is Col Wendell Neville wearing a hat similar to, but without as much fur in the crown....given that he was only in Peking for one winter this is how the cap must have been made, and not as a result of wear.....as for those wondering about the young girl, she sports a rare 1st pattern USMC leopard print field hat seen now only in the most advanced Marine collections. (Again image via the Alfred Grey Center, USMC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share #4 Posted January 5, 2008 From the 1920's. This image dates to the winter of 1922-23 and appears to show Horse Marines wearing several different styles of fur hat...and some with EGA and some without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share #5 Posted January 5, 2008 Here is Gen Butler meeting with nationalist Chinese officers c. 1927-28, Tientsin....EGAs are present on the hat. Ironically, images taken at the same time show British Legation Guard troops wearing their regimental crests on theirs...it seems logical that one of these two forces must have inspired the other. As for Marines wearing this headgear in Shanghai...I am still trying to marry up the dates the 4th Marines/6th Marines arrived in Shanghai to understand if it was the 4th that first brought them (they came ashore Mar 27) or Butlers men (Apr-Jul 27). For me it would be interesting to know if Butler had instructed his men be equipped with these at some point or if the 4th got them from the states before leaving for China, hence forcing me to rethink some of my views. Vic your album is the only example I've seen so far that shows such hats in Shanghai. Does anyone else have any images from this period? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share #6 Posted January 5, 2008 From the photos I've gathered and the spotty documents I've collected, right now I think around 1929 the Marines at the legation adopted the company diamond with EGA (I think I'll be able to narrow the date down a bit with a little more research). This image shows such a hat being worn in the late 1930's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share #7 Posted January 5, 2008 A couple of Marines in Tientsin playing around...same period..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share #8 Posted January 5, 2008 To make the matter more confusing here is a image of a Marine wearing his hat minus the diamond while out at Bei Hai Park in Peking.....ok he is on liberty so maybe no diamond was to be worn (edit: Just found a picture of other marines...same location wearing the diamond at the park ) . But I also have a 1930 dated poor quality image of marine officers having a formal shot taken and one Officer has a fur cap without a diamond. So there must have been some latitude in how these were worn and when. I'll also add one pre-war China Marine told me he had to buy his hat and diamond/EGA from the post exchange....it was not issued to him (he also listed several other items associated with the Legation that were private purchase as well). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share #9 Posted January 5, 2008 This last image shows a Marine standing in front of the old US embassy in Peking c1945-1946 wearing a winter similar to me to those worn in Iceland and shown by Bob in the initial thread. This cap I think was an issue item and not associated with pre-war north China Marines. I would like very much to see other images of Marines wearing the fur cap and any additional information you may have on them. I am also hoping someone has a documented hat to show us as well as a true company diamond for study..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobgee Posted January 5, 2008 Share #10 Posted January 5, 2008 This last image shows a Marine standing in front of the old US embassy in Peking c1945-1946 wearing a winter similar to me to those worn in Iceland. This cap I think was an issue item and not associated with pre-war China Marines. Great thread, Dirk! I'll try to post a few more "Mongolian Pisscutter" pics! S/F.....Bobgee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremiahcable Posted January 5, 2008 Share #11 Posted January 5, 2008 Excellent thread and even better photos Dirk! Can't wait for you to break down and publish some books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share #12 Posted January 5, 2008 J: Thanks much but really looking forward to Bob's images...we talked long and hard about this thread today and always enjoy seeing fresh stuff from Peking. D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teufelhunde.ret Posted January 6, 2008 Share #13 Posted January 6, 2008 Wonderful fresh information here. I wonder just how many of these in country made fir caps survived the ravages of time... since they were predominately private purchase, the bulk of them should have returned stateside. And lends credence to stories of various Chinese made EGA's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobgee Posted January 7, 2008 Share #14 Posted January 7, 2008 Dirk - As we discussed I have a couple of nice China-side Marine albums from Pekin in the 1935 - 1939 period. Many of Marines are wearing 'Mongolian pisscutters'. The above photo came from one album belonging to a fellow named Anderson and shows three Marines being 'chased' by a guard. Note that they have no USMC insignia or unit plate on their fur hats. The fellow on the far left sports 2 hashmarks on his overcoat; none show any chevrons of rank. My surmise on this pic was that they had just been convicted at a General Courtmartial and had had their USMC insignia removed as they had dishonored it, and were on their way to confinement. The photo is uncaptioned in the album. However, while going through another Pekin Marine's album/scrapbook, PFC Svoboda, a communicator, I found the following original message dated 5 Sept 1936 pasted in. I don't know for sure that the Marines in the photo are the same culprits described but believe there's good chance they are. Anyway an interesting sidebar to your fine 'fur hat' thread. Any 'Old Corps' collectors have any further knowledge of this incident? Semper Fi......Bobgee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobgee Posted January 7, 2008 Share #15 Posted January 7, 2008 here are a few more pics from the 1935-1938 Pekin Album. Especially like the pic of the Mounted Detachment. Nice array of gear and uniforms. Also the Band members...Enjoy Semper Fi.....Bobgee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted January 7, 2008 Author Share #16 Posted January 7, 2008 Bob: The image is even better than you described! ....looks like they were tried at Johnson Hall and marched past the west barracks to the brig (which I think was at the near the quarterdeck). Anyway excellent image...what is the size of the picture? Just saw the other images you posted and they are excellent...the mounted picture is really cool...I'll be studying that one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted January 8, 2008 Author Share #17 Posted January 8, 2008 Hey Bob does several of the mounted appear to have hats cut differently from the the others? (ie shaped slightly different). Dirk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobgee Posted January 8, 2008 Share #18 Posted January 8, 2008 Hey Bob does several of the mounted appear to have hats cut differently from the the others? (ie shaped slightly different). Dirk Yep....they sure do! Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted January 9, 2008 Author Share #19 Posted January 9, 2008 Bob: The rolls show 5 men from "C" Company convicted and sent home, 4 to Portsmouth and 1 to Mare Island to serve their sentences. All were confined 1-4 and tried 4 and sent to the PI initially before teh states. Will have to follow them a bit and see how their records looked.....interesting.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremiahcable Posted January 9, 2008 Share #20 Posted January 9, 2008 Bob, super additions to the thread! Between Dirk and yourself you've shown a pretty wide variety of fur hats in use at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
124cav Posted October 8, 2008 Share #21 Posted October 8, 2008 here are a few more pics from the 1935-1938 Pekin Album. Especially like the pic of the Mounted Detachment. Nice array of gear and uniforms. Also the Band members...EnjoySemper Fi.....Bobgee are the horse marines wearing boots or shoes with a leather legging? i have a pic somewhere of the mounted detachment wearing what apear to be Army 1931 pattern boots Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
124cav Posted December 21, 2008 Share #22 Posted December 21, 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
124cav Posted December 21, 2008 Share #23 Posted December 21, 2008 bumperoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted May 8, 2009 Author Share #24 Posted May 8, 2009 Wanted to add this new image to this thread....a detail from a larger picture showing part of the international relief force...here we have a member of Company D, 9th Infantry, winter 1900-01. To me it looks like the 1879 muskrat cap. So perhaps the first winter caps the Americans wore came out of stocks out of Philippines pre-positioned for use in the northern climes of Asia. BTW note the fur gloves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobgee Posted May 8, 2009 Share #25 Posted May 8, 2009 Hey Dirk - Still a most interesting thread! Glad to see you continue to research the subject. Damn, I'd love to own a USMC Pekin fur hat with badge & plate! Maybe.......some day.................Semper Fi......Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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