Jump to content


Photo

Why did these wings sell for.....


  • Please log in to reply
24 replies to this topic

#1 MikeK

MikeK
  • Members
    • Member ID: 11,042
  • 649 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Perth, Western Australia

Posted 21 December 2011 - 06:52 PM

....$790?

They look like a nice honest set (3" long) but I could not ID the maker marking (?Dodge). So, who made them and are they truly worth $790? And no, I was not second bidder, let alone the winner!

Regards
Mike

Attached Images

  • aWingsUSAF001.jpg
  • aWingsUSAF002.jpg

Edited by MikeK, 21 December 2011 - 06:53 PM.


#2 MikeK

MikeK
  • Members
    • Member ID: 11,042
  • 649 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Perth, Western Australia

Posted 21 December 2011 - 06:53 PM

more..

Attached Images

  • aWingsUSAF003.jpg


#3 MikeK

MikeK
  • Members
    • Member ID: 11,042
  • 649 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Perth, Western Australia

Posted 21 December 2011 - 06:54 PM

2..

Attached Images

  • aWingsUSAF004.jpg
  • aWingsUSAF005.jpg


#4 MikeK

MikeK
  • Members
    • Member ID: 11,042
  • 649 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Perth, Western Australia

Posted 21 December 2011 - 06:56 PM

last..

Attached Images

  • aWingsUSAF006.jpg


#5 Jack's Son

Jack's Son

    Deceased

  • IN MEMORIAM
    • Member ID: 8,213
  • 19,660 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 21 December 2011 - 07:05 PM

Because someone knows something we don't ? :dunno:
If there is a reason...I don't know it.

#6 ram957

ram957
  • Members
    • Member ID: 13,070
  • 634 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island

Posted 21 December 2011 - 07:18 PM

I was watching those also...I was trying to figure out the hallmark.

#7 John Cooper

John Cooper
  • Members
    • Member ID: 227
  • 3,063 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SF Bay Area

Posted 21 December 2011 - 08:25 PM

This is a very good question that I wish I could answer. Here are the things that stand out to me one of which was mentioned.

Interesting (unknown to me) mark proceeding the sterling mark

Older style fittings

Other then that this this I know not why it went so high. Maybe someone can enlighten those of us who do not know. I was watching this and wanted it because I recently bought another almost identical wing that attracted no real attention. The difference is mine is unmarked and has a different catch. it is also in better condition... I was planning one posting it with a few other recent pick-ups. I will have to post it here as well to further the discussion.

I hope one of the other members can shed some light on this.

Thanks
John

#8 B-17Guy

B-17Guy
  • Members
    • Member ID: 12,439
  • 1,156 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Commonwealth of Virginia

Posted 21 December 2011 - 08:41 PM

Ron Burkey had a like wing on his web-site for sale at one point. It is immediate post WWI, and
the hallmark appears to be the same N in a small circle. but hard to say. Die and findings appear to be the same as well.
He and I were discussing the wing one day and it is possibly, F. H. Noble & Co. of Chicago.
I seem to recall it was listed for $900.

Best, John

Link to the sold wing

http://www.flyingtig...gory_Code=03afw

#9 John Cooper

John Cooper
  • Members
    • Member ID: 227
  • 3,063 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SF Bay Area

Posted 21 December 2011 - 08:48 PM

Thanks John - that is a close match but the shield appears taller and more narrow to me which IIRC was the style. I do not see the makers mark in the one on Rons site... I also forgot to say the wing I have is very heavy and from the top down the shield is very thick.

If I have time Thursday I will post it for you to see.

John

EDIT the feather pattern is different as well although the reverse is the same style.

Edited by John Cooper, 21 December 2011 - 08:50 PM.


#10 B-17Guy

B-17Guy
  • Members
    • Member ID: 12,439
  • 1,156 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Commonwealth of Virginia

Posted 21 December 2011 - 09:05 PM

Hallmark is to the right of shield. The pic is at an angle so it is though to see and is why the shield looks different...

Best, John

#11 Bob Hudson

Bob Hudson

    Forum Co-Founder (Ret)

  • Administrators
    • Member ID: 2
  • 26,550 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 21 December 2011 - 09:22 PM

He and I were discussing the wing one day and it is possibly, F. H. Noble & Co. of Chicago.


Here's some large versions of the FH Noble logo

noble.jpg

noble2.jpg

And the wing shown above:

sterlingwingmark.jpg


And it doesn't seem like an FH Noble mark always guarantees success in the marketplace:

nobwings22.jpg

#12 John Cooper

John Cooper
  • Members
    • Member ID: 227
  • 3,063 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SF Bay Area

Posted 21 December 2011 - 09:56 PM

Super a positive ID on the mark although the wing that recently sold is not the same pattern as the one on Rons site. Can anyone confirm that FH Noble made wings in WW2?

#13 Bob Hudson

Bob Hudson

    Forum Co-Founder (Ret)

  • Administrators
    • Member ID: 2
  • 26,550 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 21 December 2011 - 10:32 PM

Super a positive ID on the mark although the wing that recently sold is not the same pattern as the one on Rons site. Can anyone confirm that FH Noble made wings in WW2?


Based on the company's owners and history it seems quite plausible:

'Frank served three years as First Lieutenant in the United States Marine Corps and began his professional career in one of the family-owned businesses, F.H. Noble Co, founded by his great-grandfather, Franklin Noble, located at 559 W 59th, Chicago, IL. F.H. Noble Co. was a manufacturer of jeweler's findings and "Trophies for Champions" and during WWII was awarded the "E" award for excellence in manufacturing military ordnance, such as bomb fuses.

At the time that F.H. Noble was sold, Frank was president of the company.

Frank continued a long line of military ancestry beginning with the Revolutionary War; Spanish American War; World War I (grandfather, Col. Byron Allen, Army Infantry); WWI (father, Col. Jack Allen), Army Infantry; Korean War (brother, Sergeant Kim Allen, Army Intelligence); Vietnam (brother, Capt. Bruce Allen), U.S. Air Force."


#14 CliffP

CliffP
  • Members
    • Member ID: 4,542
  • 1,035 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 21 December 2011 - 10:32 PM

Super a positive ID on the mark although the wing that recently sold is not the same pattern as the one on Rons site. Can anyone confirm that FH Noble made wings in WW2?


John,

They did not make wings in WW2; however, they did make them shortly after WW1 and what the buyer bought was a nice 1919 pattern pilot badge made in the early 1920s... but was it really worth $790? Seems a bit pricey.

Cliff

#15 MikeK

MikeK
  • Members
    • Member ID: 11,042
  • 649 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Perth, Western Australia

Posted 21 December 2011 - 10:44 PM

Well, that certainly adds a bit of light to the original question!

Looking closer at the maker mark, I am unsure if is an N in a circle or an N in a C. The latter would make more sense as if Noble is for Noble the C would be either for Co or Chicago.

Interesting that the large catch has been found on Dodge (also Chicago) wings.

Also interesting that these wings are assigned an immediately post-WW1 age. The obverse pattern seems very similar to some Sterling clutchbacks I have, except the obverse detail on the clutchbacks appears to be a lot better.

Regards
Mie

#16 rustywings

rustywings

    Forum Subject Advisor

  • FORUM SUBJECT ADVISOR
    • Member ID: 7,548
  • 3,029 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 21 December 2011 - 11:43 PM

John,

They did not make wings in WW2; however, they did make them shortly after WW1 and what the buyer bought was a nice 1919 pattern pilot badge made in the early 1920s... but was it really worth $790? Seems a bit pricey.

Cliff



Noble also produced a nicely detailed solid-anchor USN Aviator wing during the WWI-1920's era with the identical encircled 'N' and STERLING mark as seen above. An example of the Aviator wing and hallmark is depicted at the bottom of page 35 in the book "United States Navy Wings Of Gold." The author only described it as an "obscure hallmark."

Russ

#17 pfrost

pfrost
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,519
  • 4,136 posts

Posted 22 December 2011 - 06:41 AM

Just a couple thoughts on price and value. At 790$ or so, this ~1919-1930 wing sold for about 1/2 of what a really nice WWI (1917-1919) wing would be worth. Considering that the post WWI years had fewer pilots, the 1919 version of the pilot wing is actually rarer than the WWI variations.

I have seen the "From Official Dies" marked wings sell in the 500-1000$ range (and I have seen more of those than I have seen of this circle N hallmarked wings).

I have frequently seen WWII vintage Luxenberg wings sell for 500-600$ and they are much more common (in a relative sense) than the 1919 pattern wings.

Some of the very early, finely feathered wings and Robbins marked wings that can be dated to the mid-20's typically fall into the 200-500$ range.

In the rarity of the wings that were worn early after WWI, some patterns and makers seem more common than others (eg Kinney Co), and frankly, this is one wing maker I have never seen before. It would be hard to find another, I would suspect.

Finally, some thoughts on Ron Burkey and value. Ron is a heck of a nice guy and always willing to share his experience and advice (and I am not trying to say anything bad about him). While I have yet to buy a thing from him, be always has excellent items and I have heard and believe that he will always stand by his merchandise 100%. On the other hand, when judging "real value" I tend to use a basic rule of thumb when looking at Ron's prices, and figure about 50-70% of his asking price reflects the "market value" of the wings and 25-50% of his price reflect his reputation and integrity. So, if he sold one for around 900$, then a 790$ price tag isn't all that out of line.

One other thing I have seen people looking at a wing and say "Its a fake... I am 100% sure about that" and then someone says, "but I bought it from Ron (or Ron has one just like it, or Ron looked it over and said its good)"and the conversation immediately goes to "Well then, what a nice wing. I knew it was real all along". I have also seen it go the other way, where someone says "I bought this from the vet (dealer, neighbor, local ASMIC show) and know its real" to "Ron looked it over and gave it a thumbs down. "Well then, the vet must have bought a fake!". Not that there is anything wrong with that, as Ron is usually correct (but he can make mistakes sometimes).

Still, at the end of the day, that is a heck of a nice wing. Rare, hallmarked, well made, and likely worn during the early, golden days of American military aviation. We have a pinned thread on wings from this era.

Patrick

Edited by pfrost, 22 December 2011 - 06:55 AM.


#18 Bob Hudson

Bob Hudson

    Forum Co-Founder (Ret)

  • Administrators
    • Member ID: 2
  • 26,550 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 December 2011 - 08:28 AM

Looking closer at the maker mark, I am unsure if is an N in a circle or an N in a C. The latter would make more sense as if Noble is for Noble the C would be either for Co or Chicago.

As shown above Noble did use the N in a circle, but this one does indeed look like a C - however you if you look at the lighting on the other letters you see similar lighter areas that match what appears to be the "break" in a letter C.

sterlingwingmark2.jpg

#19 empireguns

empireguns
  • Members
    • Member ID: 65,446
  • 1,275 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The great state of Dixie

Posted 22 December 2011 - 01:37 PM

Thats a good thing to learn. Never knew about these makers. I'l be checking extra close from now on though. thanks

#20 Dave

Dave

    SENIOR MODERATOR

  • Senior Moderators
    • Member ID: 209
  • 13,902 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 22 December 2011 - 01:57 PM

This has been an enlightening thread. If I were looking at a riker mount of wings, I would have gone right by these, maybe with a brief stop of "hey, those look like early fittings" but if I saw a $75 pricetag, I wouldn't have thought twice about them. I'll be much more cognizant when I'm looking at wings in the future!

Dave

#21 pfrost

pfrost
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,519
  • 4,136 posts

Posted 22 December 2011 - 02:10 PM

This has been an enlightening thread. If I were looking at a riker mount of wings, I would have gone right by these, maybe with a brief stop of "hey, those look like early fittings" but if I saw a $75 pricetag, I wouldn't have thought twice about them. I'll be much more cognizant when I'm looking at wings in the future!

Dave


You ALWAYS need to turn over those wings! I have found some rare and fine examples of nice wings that way.

Patrick

#22 hawk3370

hawk3370
  • Members
    • Member ID: 6,022
  • 1,015 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 December 2011 - 05:58 PM

Cliff was right on as to this style being very early 1919-1920's wings. The 1919 style wing can usually be identified by the thick heavy wing itself and the very heavy pin on the back. In addition these wings will be 3" tip to tip as opposed to the 3 1/8" wings that come along later on. There is something very striking about the simplicity of these wings in my opinion.

Would like to wish all you members a very Merry Christmas and good hunting in 2012.

Terry

#23 MikeK

MikeK
  • Members
    • Member ID: 11,042
  • 649 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Perth, Western Australia

Posted 12 February 2012 - 08:10 PM

Well, I went hunting armed with the additional information from this thread and turned up the 2 examples attached. I is a dead ringer for the wing that started the thread (although the N inside the circle is not as well defined in this case. The lower wing is more interesting. Same obverse and same main pin but different reverse, hinge (different side profiles/shape) and catch (the lower example has a slightly smaller OD and includes a "cradle" that I've noticed on some "Dallas" type wings). The lower wing is also a thicker, and therefore heavier, example (23.18g v 16.96g for the marked wing). It is also very slightly larger than the marked wing however, I think this is more to do with slightly different degrees of vaulting. I hope you enjopy them as much as I do!

Regards
Mike

Attached Images

  • New_13Feb12_x250_obv1a.jpg


#24 MikeK

MikeK
  • Members
    • Member ID: 11,042
  • 649 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Perth, Western Australia

Posted 12 February 2012 - 08:11 PM

Reverse...

Attached Images

  • New_13Feb12_x250_rev1a.jpg


#25 Paul S

Paul S
  • Members
    • Member ID: 3,515
  • 632 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northeast

Posted 14 February 2012 - 10:36 AM

Here's my example. Had for some time, bought it while dumber than now and got a good buy as a result. Glad to know what it is. Thanks, gents.

Attached Images

  • 1918_F.H._Noble.JPG



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users