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Vietnam uniforms, HBTs on eBay

Started by shrapneldude , Oct 20 2011 10:57 PM

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#1 shrapneldude

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 10:57 PM

VNeb2.jpg
http://www.ebay.com/...=item1c2005bdd0
VNeb3.jpg
http://www.ebay.com/...=item1c2005bdda
VNeb1.jpg
http://www.ebay.com/...=item1c2005bdd9


Found these three on eBay. Not sure they're 100% legit, especially with the story attached. Am I being overly critical or are these all suspect?

#2 HoovieDude

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 11:42 PM

Not real knowledgeable in that era for the most, but these look like pure fantasy to me. I thought that by the time Vietnam rolled around, the HBT's were replaced by the OG's and later, the jungles. And how convenient that they were "parade" or "Am Legion" shirts. Sounds like a nicely worded manner to say " these are fake, and if you call me on it, I can say I was told they were for parades", etc..

#3 mhk

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 05:52 AM

Dont dont about other shirts but Crane and Beck shirts are originally from Lawrence's collection

See 2nd shirt under tigers are Crane and scroll more and you can spot Beck shirt also ---> click here

After reading sellers description from Crane & Beck shirts, i would say "buy the item not the story"

Mikko

Edited by mhk, 21 October 2011 - 05:59 AM.


#4 shrapneldude

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 07:37 AM

The SF patch on the 'Crane' shirt looks like a much newer, sewn-edge style patch that probably shouldn't be on an HBT shirt.

#5 MattS

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 05:29 AM

In regards to the Crane shirt, he has a CIB with a star (Korea and Nam, though it could be WW2 and Korea), but his combat patch is the 1st Aviation Brigade which wasn't formed until March of 1966. :think: Would make more sense to be a Korean combat unit like the 7th ID. And there are no stripes on his sleeves? A two war combat vet who was a slick sleeve private? I would guess that both shoulder patches and the 2nd award CIB (note how unfaded it is) were added to an otherwise legit shirt.

And coincidentally, he also sells SF patches and Airborne tabs:
http://www.ebay.com/...=item256856ef14

http://www.ebay.com/...=item1c1fda016f

Edited by MattS, 22 October 2011 - 05:41 AM.


#6 mhk

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 07:45 AM

And coincidentally, he also sells SF patches and Airborne tabs:
http://www.ebay.com/...=item256856ef14

http://www.ebay.com/...=item1c1fda016f


See my earlier post.
I haven seen these shirts on another seller/collector and this seller havent added nothing there

Mikko

#7 treetop

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 08:18 AM

One other point, on the beck shirt, look at the SSG sleeve rank and the ghosts below them. Smells like week old fish.

#8 MattS

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 08:35 AM

See my earlier post.
I haven seen these shirts on another seller/collector and this seller havent added nothing there

Mikko


Fair enough, just a coincidence then. I am still confused by the post-1966 1st AVN BDE combat patch and lack of rank on a 2 war combat vet's 1950s 13-star-button HBT shirt however.

Edited by MattS, 22 October 2011 - 08:41 AM.


#9 MattS

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 08:37 AM

One other point, on the beck shirt, look at the SSG sleeve rank and the ghosts below them. Smells like week old fish.


If he was PROMOTED to SSG, the shadow under should have been smaller, not larger. I agree. Unless he was going to other way? I don't expect guys were getting busted DOWN to SSG very often though.

#10 shrapneldude

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 02:39 PM

I'm confused by the implication that because the shirts previously belonged to someone who has a nice collection that they are automatically "Good."

To be completely honest, I'm a little sick of this explanation from people. "Well, if it was in Bob's collection, it's got to be good." Because some collectors are infallible? Regardless of who may or may not have owned an item in the past, if there's something questionable about it, ESPECIALLY if it comes up for sale with a less than believable story, it merits a serious discussion by collectors on forums like this. It's the only way we learn.

Anyone can be wrong, no matter how much money they've spent on their collection.

#11 MattS

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 03:15 PM

Well put. :thumbsup:
I still have concerns about the Crane shirt that I think need answered before I believe that it is completely original, regardless of any previous ownership.

#12 gwb123

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 03:46 PM

The patch on the right shoulder of the Beck shirt is an odd one.

It is supposed to be some form of Vietnamese Airborne insignia. The weaving is all wrong for the early Vietnam period.

I have never seen one like it. But apparently neither has Harry Pugh, who wrote the book on ARVN Airborne insignia.
There is nothing remotely like that in his book.

Also not in Harry's book is a Vietnamese jump wing made like this one. There were machine made examples, but this one just
does not match up. The star is the wrong color for a color wing... it should be yellow or gold.

The Laotian wing is a weak imitation... a machine made copy that would have sold through Lancer Militaria or a similar outlet.
Again, not something you would expect to see during the wartime period.

Finally, if this is a "parade" shirt, why no US Army tape? He's got everything else on there.

The shadow of the rank looks bigger than SFC... the SSG chevrons look to have been resewn.

This shirt has way too many red flags.

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  • Beck_Uniform_small.jpg


#13 all-bull

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 04:45 PM

My two cents....The Colorado looks horrible. I'm with Gil. Way too many red flags, even on the Lao and ARVN stuff... and is that camo surplus ROK, by chance? I'm probably wrong, but just thought it did not look quite right for beogam

Edited by all-bull, 22 October 2011 - 05:00 PM.


#14 Sgt_Rock_EasyCo

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 07:00 PM

Yuk, total put-togethers. I put together stuff for my own collection that is 1000 times better than that.

Rock

#15 HoovieDude

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 07:06 PM

I'm confused by the implication that because the shirts previously belonged to someone who has a nice collection that they are automatically "Good."

To be completely honest, I'm a little sick of this explanation from people. "Well, if it was in Bob's collection, it's got to be good." Because some collectors are infallible? Regardless of who may or may not have owned an item in the past, if there's something questionable about it, ESPECIALLY if it comes up for sale with a less than believable story, it merits a serious discussion by collectors on forums like this. It's the only way we learn.

Anyone can be wrong, no matter how much money they've spent on their collection.


This. While I have great faith in the knowledge of those who have more experience in the collecting world, at the end, they are just like everyone else and prone to mistakes. Or making judgement on items with bias. It has always been my belief, in real life and in hobby worlds, that there are no such things as experts and I always cringe when men are called such. Knowledgeable, experienced, well versed, proficient and other verbage yes, but expert, no.

Regardless of whose collection these were in, I still don't care for them and don't get the good vibes from them.

#16 mhk

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 10:29 PM

I'm confused by the implication that because the shirts previously belonged to someone who has a nice collection that they are automatically "Good."

To be completely honest, I'm a little sick of this explanation from people. "Well, if it was in Bob's collection, it's got to be good." Because some collectors are infallible? Regardless of who may or may not have owned an item in the past, if there's something questionable about it, ESPECIALLY if it comes up for sale with a less than believable story, it merits a serious discussion by collectors on forums like this. It's the only way we learn.

Anyone can be wrong, no matter how much money they've spent on their collection.


shrapneldude, i do not think anyone has said so
Of course it can be put togerher but at least this seller is clean and im quite sure Lawrence K (lkmilitary.com) is also

Mikko

#17 MattS

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 04:30 AM

I think we can be certain that the current seller has not tampered with these and Mikko says the prior owner didn't either, but somewhere in the past they were probably put together. I asked the seller if the Crane shirt had any rank on it and his answer was, "Hi... no, there is no rank on the sleeves, nor is there any indication of any rank ever being on the sleeves... Thanks for your inquiry.. Patrick". A 1950s/early 1960s HBT utility shirt worn by a two-war combat infantryman with a combat patch for a unit that did not exist before 1966 who was a buck private? Does not make any sense to me at all. I say there was a Private Crane who was airborne qualified in the 1950s. Someone got his shirt, added two shoulder patches and a 2nd award CIB, laundered it a few times, and we see the result. Just my opinion.

#18 Sgt_Rock_EasyCo

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 08:41 AM

I think we can be certain that the current seller has not tampered with these and Mikko says the prior owner didn't either, but somewhere in the past they were probably put together. I asked the seller if the Crane shirt had any rank on it and his answer was, "Hi... no, there is no rank on the sleeves, nor is there any indication of any rank ever being on the sleeves... Thanks for your inquiry.. Patrick". A 1950s/early 1960s HBT utility shirt worn by a two-war combat infantryman with a combat patch for a unit that did not exist before 1966 who was a buck private? Does not make any sense to me at all. I say there was a Private Crane who was airborne qualified in the 1950s. Someone got his shirt, added two shoulder patches and a 2nd award CIB, laundered it a few times, and we see the result. Just my opinion.


That does seem to be the case.

I have some commemorative jackets that I put together for grins and giggles. They reflect my own military experience. Such as a 3rd pattern jungle fatigue with all color insignia including Sgt. stripes. It's not typical for Vietnam and by no means for my time period but I saw some buddies with similarly set up fatigues at a reunion and copied theirs. I have a WWII HBT shirt similarly set up for the 1950's.

When I die you guys will be arguing over the authenticity of the my uniforms, Indeed!

The rest are set up for the early 1980's. ERDL's, Jungle Fatigues, BDU's, Jungle Cammies etc..but a couple are reunion jackets.

Rock


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