High quality wing reproductions... Made in China?

[John Cooper]

In another thread Cliff brought up an interesting point (see below) which I would like to open for discussion with all the members. I feel this deserved a seperate thread.

 

 

I am not well up on Computer-Aided Design/Computer-Aided Manufacturing (CAD/CAM) technology but it has been around for many years and will basically allow most any one to either fabricate, restore, mill or duplicate any object needed when using the original for a guide.

 

Duncan Campbell and I had a couple of discussions about this about twenty or twenty-five years ago after Alan Beckman of Fox Military Equipment Co. was quoted as saying he could duplicate any badge using the new CAD/CAM technology; therefore, we believed that when he acquired some of the original N. S. Meyer wing badge dies he did not get the original force tools, also known as reverse dies or male backplates, to go with them that were needed to punch (produce) new restrikes. His solution may have been to have new force tools fabricated via CAD/CAM technology, using various size N.S. Meyer hallmarks, but when the hallmarks were copied, they were copied backwards... and that may explain why the letters on the hallmarks are in reversed order.

 

:think: Changing the subject a bit, I also believe more sophisticated CAD/CAM technology is being used by the Chinese to make a number of WWII wing badge copies such as the Firmin Service pilot badges discussed in thread... http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...showtopic=98853

 

Cliff

[John Cooper]

I do not know the answer to this question as I think there are many possibilities but I wanted to put a few of my thoughts down to see what everyone thinks.

 

Cliff has mentioned a very specific technology that I think when used in combination with 3D printing could produce wings but I am unsure if they could duplicate the quality as actually die striking them.

 

The following link provides some general information 3D printing general info which when combined with this youtube link can demo the capabilities of 3D printing. Youtube Video Now this is just general information and there is so much more.

 

Although this may be one method I think it is highly likely that they might jst be doing it the old fashion way i.e. die striking. It is well known that reproduction US coins are being made in China today see this link: Fake US coins made in China

 

Here is an example of a fake coin.

 

 

Now how to get from coins to wings? A good question that I am glad you asked

 

Please take a look at the following wing which I feel is a Chinese made reproduction of an Amcraft wing.

 

Link to this wing on eBay

 

 

Now how do I know this is fake? Very simple I contacted the seller who has been selling these wings since at least 2009! I will not go into too much detail but I was asking if he could provide me x number of these wings and after several emails the available number went from about 20 to 100! The seller was careful to always say he had to get them from collectors but I think the numbers speak for themselves.

 

I would love to hear everyones thoughts on this as I really feel this is a problem for the hobby.

 

Cheers

John

[Jack's Son]

John,

While I don't feel qualified to comment on the wings you have mentioned, I can comment on Chinese technology.

 

While I was doing my graduate work (70's), the school of Engineering was putting together their CAD/CAM program. The largest number of students being accepted into the new program were from The Peoples Republic of China. Not only had the dean of their Engineering department receive her Doctorate degree from the university some thirty years earlier, the Chinese Government was a generous contributor to the new programs development.

 

As far as Chinese Wing manufacturing........I can only contribute pictures of two pairs of WWII Wings that were made in the CIB theater. One Pilot and one Liaison wing. Obviuosly this is not the technology you are discussing here.

[armillary_journey]

Well, I've pretty much proven as of late I'm not qualified to comment on much when it comes to wings.

However I do have a question. What's not to say that the Chinese wouldn't create their own dies?

I understand that is expensive, and time consuming. But due to the current economic events in China

in the last decade, there is no doubt the money and skill are there to do this. If there are dollars to be made

some industrious business in China would get on it.

 

Let me put my helmet on........OK, I'm ready...... :pinch:

[CliffP]

What's not to say that the Chinese wouldn't create their own dies?

 

I understand that is expensive, and time consuming. But due to the current economic events in China

in the last decade, there is no doubt the money and skill are there to do this. If there are dollars to be made

some industrious business in China would get on it.

 

Let me put my helmet on........OK, I'm ready...... :pinch:

AJ, that is a valid question, and it is not just the Chinese who may be making fake wing badges with the aid of CAD/CAM technology. The badges could be coming from any where.

 

Personally, I don't think any wing badges are being milled directly by machine using CAD/CAM; rather that, a new die is first milled out of a block of metal using CAD/CAM and then with the new die they can stamp out the wing badge repro's... similar to how the Chinese have made counterfeit coin dies in the link that John pointed out to us.

 

http://coins.about.com/od/worldcoins/ig/Ch...erfeiting-Ring/

 

"Sober"

 

 

 

 

.

[Bob Hudson]

I have seen in knives for quite a while that the Chinese are very adept at something that places like India and Pakistan never mastered when it came to making knives: precision. There's no reason they couldn't do wings or anything else in a manner that would beat pretty much any reproductions produced in the past.

[mshaw]

If this is the case (and I do believe that Cliff and John are right)wing collecting along with many other types of collectibles is dead in the long run. No new collectors will enter the field and it will slowly die.

 

IMO, China is an all-consuming monster. It has wrecked our manufacturing base and is in the process of devouring the collectibles market. They are the biggest thieves of intellectual property in the world. Antique Week ran an article on an ebay scam whereby someone buys a legitimate U.S. coin and then wants to return it for a refund but returns one of the Chinese made fakes instead.

[LuftStalg1]

China faking rare coins too!

 

I used to collect rare certified coins and came across this when I was putting around the net. To bad we are so enmeshed with China now. Makes me just sick! :thumbdown:

 

http://coins.about.com/od/worldcoins/ig/Ch...erfeiting-Ring/

[Allan H.]

His solution may have been to have new force tools fabricated via CAD/CAM technology, using various size N.S. Meyer hallmarks, but when the hallmarks were copied, they were copied backwards... and that may explain why the letters on the hallmarks are in reversed order.

 

WHile this might be a legitimate statement, I would urge collectors to not use the reversed Meyer hallmark as a benchmark for determining a wing to be a fake. N.S. Meyer made this same mistake themselves on many pieces of insignia and this backawards hallmarked insignia has come directly from veterans where the insignia was without a doubt original. I have had this same discussion regarding reversed hallamrks for over 30 years when some fellow collectors and I made the reversed hallamrk discovery ourselves. Our conclusion 30 years ago was that NOBODY would have bothered to fake 2nd Lt bars and other "dirt common (at the time) insignia."

 

My two cents,

Allan

[Custermen]

Our conclusion 30 years ago was that NOBODY would have bothered to fake 2nd Lt bars and other "dirt common (at the time) insignia.

 

I would think the cost would be too high to make it profitable. Maybe this process is cheaper in China. I can see it being cheaper if they make a die for forming them. But I would think this process is too expensive except for copying those high dollar German Nazi stuff.

 

Steve

[pfrost]

WHile this might be a legitimate statement, I would urge collectors to not use the reversed Meyer hallmark as a benchmark for determining a wing to be a fake. N.S. Meyer made this same mistake themselves on many pieces of insignia and this backawards hallmarked insignia has come directly from veterans where the insignia was without a doubt original. I have had this same discussion regarding reversed hallamrks for over 30 years when some fellow collectors and I made the reversed hallamrk discovery ourselves. Our conclusion 30 years ago was that NOBODY would have bothered to fake 2nd Lt bars and other "dirt common (at the time) insignia."

 

My two cents,

Allan

 

I think Allan is absolutely correct, one of the LAST things you should look at are the hallmarks when it comes to NS Meyer (IMHO). I can promise you that for just about every "rule" with the hallmarks, someone will find an exception to that rule. There are so many less variable characteristics to use that likely give you a better idea of a fake. In any case, someone will always disagree with you. Buy what you like with NS Meyer and don't worry to much about what the rest say. No matter what, just dont buy a NS Meyer wing that has a pin that opens all the way. It is true, some of the restrikes have the correct pin, but ALL the real ones (IMHO) will have the 90 degree pin.

 

Frankly, I always look at the whole "gestalt" of a wing, including its finish, patina, fittings, hallmarks, price, source, and relatively scarcity before pulling out my wallet and dropping money on the table. As for the fakes and ebay, I find that if you are going to buy off of ebay, you NEED to know what you are doing and be smart about doing it on some many levels before you get to deeply involved ANYWAY. You run the risk of fraud, shill bidding, bait and switch tactics, and other scams, the least of which is worrying about Chinese-made fakes.

 

As for the hobby changing, I have been hearing that particular schtick since the late 1980's when I first started; and I am pretty sure the guys who were collecting before me had the same sort of concerns about fakes when they were collecting. In many ways, collectors now have so may more resources than they had before, that the fakes have to be more effective. Its like going fishing, someone is always going to say you should have been here last week, when it was all better. But I have been collecting and enjoying the hobby for years, and it hasn't been that bad a time. If anything, I see more really cool and interesting wings now than I ever did before.

 

However, if you think it though, the fakes are really not designed to fool the really experienced and advanced collectors. Those who have been around the collecting fields for some time, have handled a lot of wings, know the score on many of the fakes, and have developed a pretty savvy understanding and healthy skepticism of what to look for (and avoid) and what to be wary of to avoid being a serious target of these fakers. The people who are being targeted are the novice and semi-advanced collectors who are just learning the ropes, but have enough interest and excitement in the field to make an impulse or ill-advised purchase. For example, it used to be, that a sand cast wing made in someone's garage and a story about it coming from the "CBI" was all you needed to fool those newbie collectors. NOW, you need some sort of computer-generated laser driven reproductive mechanism to make fakes to fool those same collectors--which is a pretty positive thing about the nature of our hobby, that we are so much harder to fool. Also, with the speed of information, it takes much less time for most of the collecting community to wise up. Basically, the fakers have to be better because the collectors are more prepared.

 

I recall when those Angus and Coote and Fermin fakes started hitting the market 2 or 3 years ago, it seemed like they were flying out of eBay. Now, I see the same couple of guys peddling the same wings over and over again, with no bids on them. People wise up, loose interest and move to different areas. It didn't take long for people to wise up.

 

I guess my personal view of the matter is that if you are patient and careful, you can enjoy this collecting field without having to be totally paranoid about the fakes--they are out there, they have always been out there, and they will always be out there. Be smart, get educated, be savvy, learn before you buy, look and listen, build up experience, handle originals, talk to other collectors, explore other venues for wings (I get almost all my stuff out of flea markets because I hate the militaria shows) and you ought to have no problem building up a collection you are proud of--and if you happen to find a clunker or two, so what? I move my "bad boys" to a special case that I call the reference ricker-mount and use them for side by side comparisons.

 

Patrick

[navynambu]

The cost to use these machines has plummetted in the last couple of years, it's now almost peanuts to rent the use of one, they just charge you per hour and it would take maybe 10 minutes to make a wing, almost nothing. Again, the machines are so common that there is now just a rather nominal hourly charge to use them. I also restore antique cars and the machines are used all the time to make rare formerly irreplaceable parts. It suffices to say that he tool and die makers of yesterday have already starved to death. Here's a clip from Jay Leno's garage that's already several years old, which is kind of a good intoduction if you are not familiar with the technology:

 

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/nexten...scanner/944641/

 

I was at the Arizona State University Engineering school over Christmas, and the students are now building their own mini-copies of these machines that use plastic rods to fabricate the reproduced items for less than $1000.00 per machine. These will for example make an exact leg bone out of plastic. Very cool. The real ones like Leno's can be had perhaps the price of 30 or 40 rare wings... so you can see that making wings certainly isn't "too expensive" ...So the technology is right here, right now, at your local machine shop in any midddle sized city in America, and at any engineering skool at any University. Caveat emptor. Rollie

[rustywings]

I think Allan is absolutely correct, one of the LAST things you should look at are the hallmarks when it comes to NS Meyer (IMHO). I can promise you that for just about every "rule" with the hallmarks, someone will find an exception to that rule. There are so many less variable characteristics to use that likely give you a better idea of a fake. In any case, someone will always disagree with you. Buy what you like with NS Meyer and don't worry to much about what the rest say. No matter what, just dont buy a NS Meyer wing that has a pin that opens all the way. It is true, some of the restrikes have the correct pin, but ALL the real ones (IMHO) will have the 90 degree pin.

 

Frankly, I always look at the whole "gestalt" of a wing, including its finish, patina, fittings, hallmarks, price, source, and relatively scarcity before pulling out my wallet and dropping money on the table. As for the fakes and ebay, I find that if you are going to buy off of ebay, you NEED to know what you are doing and be smart about doing it on some many levels before you get to deeply involved ANYWAY. You run the risk of fraud, shill bidding, bait and switch tactics, and other scams, the least of which is worrying about Chinese-made fakes.

 

As for the hobby changing, I have been hearing that particular schtick since the late 1980's when I first started; and I am pretty sure the guys who were collecting before me had the same sort of concerns about fakes when they were collecting. In many ways, collectors now have so may more resources than they had before, that the fakes have to be more effective. Its like going fishing, someone is always going to say you should have been here last week, when it was all better. But I have been collecting and enjoying the hobby for years, and it hasn't been that bad a time. If anything, I see more really cool and interesting wings now than I ever did before.

 

However, if you think it though, the fakes are really not designed to fool the really experienced and advanced collectors. Those who have been around the collecting fields for some time, have handled a lot of wings, know the score on many of the fakes, and have developed a pretty savvy understanding and healthy skepticism of what to look for (and avoid) and what to be wary of to avoid being a serious target of these fakers. The people who are being targeted are the novice and semi-advanced collectors who are just learning the ropes, but have enough interest and excitement in the field to make an impulse or ill-advised purchase. For example, it used to be, that a sand cast wing made in someone's garage and a story about it coming from the "CBI" was all you needed to fool those newbie collectors. NOW, you need some sort of computer-generated laser driven reproductive mechanism to make fakes to fool those same collectors--which is a pretty positive thing about the nature of our hobby, that we are so much harder to fool. Also, with the speed of information, it takes much less time for most of the collecting community to wise up. Basically, the fakers have to be better because the collectors are more prepared.

 

I recall when those Angus and Coote and Fermin fakes started hitting the market 2 or 3 years ago, it seemed like they were flying out of eBay. Now, I see the same couple of guys peddling the same wings over and over again, with no bids on them. People wise up, loose interest and move to different areas. It didn't take long for people to wise up.

 

I guess my personal view of the matter is that if you are patient and careful, you can enjoy this collecting field without having to be totally paranoid about the fakes--they are out there, they have always been out there, and they will always be out there. Be smart, get educated, be savvy, learn before you buy, look and listen, build up experience, handle originals, talk to other collectors, explore other venues for wings (I get almost all my stuff out of flea markets because I hate the militaria shows) and you ought to have no problem building up a collection you are proud of--and if you happen to find a clunker or two, so what? I move my "bad boys" to a special case that I call the reference ricker-mount and use them for side by side comparisons.

 

Patrick

 

 

 

Patrick, you're a wise man. Thanks for your efforts in expressing a common-sense approach to collecting in this field!

[Sjef]

......

As for the hobby changing, I have been hearing that particular schtick since the late 1980's when I first started; and I am pretty sure the guys who were collecting before me had the same sort of concerns about fakes when they were collecting. In many ways, collectors now have so may more resources than they had before, that the fakes have to be more effective. Its like going fishing, someone is always going to say you should have been here last week, when it was all better. But I have been collecting and enjoying the hobby for years, and it hasn't been that bad a time. If anything, I see more really cool and interesting wings now than I ever did before.

 

However, if you think it though, the fakes are really not designed to fool the really experienced and advanced collectors. Those who have been around the collecting fields for some time, have handled a lot of wings, know the score on many of the fakes, and have developed a pretty savvy understanding and healthy skepticism of what to look for (and avoid) and what to be wary of to avoid being a serious target of these fakers. The people who are being targeted are the novice and semi-advanced collectors who are just learning the ropes, but have enough interest and excitement in the field to make an impulse or ill-advised purchase. For example, it used to be, that a sand cast wing made in someone's garage and a story about it coming from the "CBI" was all you needed to fool those newbie collectors. NOW, you need some sort of computer-generated laser driven reproductive mechanism to make fakes to fool those same collectors--which is a pretty positive thing about the nature of our hobby, that we are so much harder to fool. Also, with the speed of information, it takes much less time for most of the collecting community to wise up. Basically, the fakers have to be better because the collectors are more prepared.

 

....

 

I guess my personal view of the matter is that if you are patient and careful, you can enjoy this collecting field without having to be totally paranoid about the fakes--they are out there, they have always been out there, and they will always be out there. Be smart, get educated, be savvy, learn before you buy, look and listen, build up experience, handle originals, talk to other collectors, explore other venues for wings (I get almost all my stuff out of flea markets because I hate the militaria shows) and you ought to have no problem building up a collection you are proud of--and if you happen to find a clunker or two, so what? I move my "bad boys" to a special case that I call the reference ricker-mount and use them for side by side comparisons.

 

Patrick

 

 

Hear, hear, Patrick!!

 

I very much agree. Fakes have always been around as you can see in the picture below.

The fakers are fishing for easy money and taking the extra step is only worthwhile if you can fool a considerably larger group of potential buyers.

With all the possibilities -like the USMF- for collectors to get advise, I would say this is the COLLECTORS ERA.

I consider myself to be a novice in the field of wing collecting and I would have been fooled a few times had it not been for the help of some great USMF-members.

With the help of you all if have no fear in exploring further in this field!!

 

 

Picture taken at the Tower in London

 

[Jack's Son]

Well, I've pretty much proven as of late I'm not qualified to comment on much when it comes to wings.

AJ,

Hey Guy..........we should get together for some "home study", you can't be worse then my record!! :w00t: :w00t:

[teufelhunde.ret]

ALL, A REALLY GOOD THREAD TO FOLLOW...!

[Prof]

Hi All,

 

I do not know the answer to this question as I think there are many possibilities but I wanted to put a few of my thoughts down to see what everyone thinks.

 

Cliff has mentioned a very specific technology that I think when used in combination with 3D printing could produce wings but I am unsure if they could duplicate the quality as actually die striking them.

 

I'm looking into producing prototype items by the metal printing method DMLS (Direct Metal Laser Sintering) at the moment. With current technology, it is unlikely to be a problem for US wing production. The metal powders in use tend to be quite specialised (eg, Bronze, with a meltable binder), and I have not come across anyone offering Silver powder for this system. Also, one drawback to part production is that, being made from fused powder, the parts are porous. This means that they need to be post sintered to increase density, and it's a fiddly process in comparison to stamping or casting. Why do it then? Well, you can achieve 3D shapes impossible with normal casting or machining technologies, and wings are not complex shapes.

 

CAD manufacture of stamping tools certainly is a more 'dangerous' threat to collecting wings. The thing is, modern laser scanning systems can produce exact CAD replicas (even down to surface scratches), and to tell a CAD system that you want an inverse model of an item as simple as a wing is the work of seconds. Tool production is easy, and stamping them out, easier still.

 

The link is to a Pathé news reel showing the production of British war medals (to keep it US orientated, I notice the British Battledress at the end is US manufactured Lend Lease :thumbsup: ) It shows in good detail standard stamping (and safety!) techniques of the period. You can see how easy these things are to make with the correct tooling, and a press.

 

Pathé Newsreel.

 

Best Regards,

 

Prof

[Jack's Son]

.................CAD manufacture of stamping tools certainly is a more 'dangerous' threat to collecting wings........................

This is the type of news we DON'T like to hear!! :pinch:

We NEED to hear it, but we don't like to hear it. :crying:

[Prof]

Hi All,

 

This is the type of news we DON'T like to hear!! :pinch:

We NEED to hear it, but we don't like to hear it. :crying:

 

OK, so that was the bad news.

 

The good news is that, no matter how accurate the reproduction of the actual wings are, it still requires a deal of skill on the part of the forger to finish them in an accurate fashion. It becomes more important for the collector to be able to recognise good pins, catches, the way they are attached to the wing, whether that maker used those attachments, colouring of the wing, etc. These are things that a forger with even a perfect wing will fall down on.

 

For example, go and look at the Helmet section of this forum. There you will see many examples of fake M1 or M2 helmets created using actual WWII shells, but failing on some detail of fitment (bales, straps, attachments, type of paint, paint chemistry etc.). Collectors of these items have had to raise their game over the last few years to separate the good from the bad. And I'm sure that they fail from time to time, but I think they suceed most of the time. The bad news here is that the serious fakers raise their game too. And the worse news is that I'm certain that they read fora like this to see how fakes are spotted. It's a matter of 'professional' pride to improve next time, and not get spotted. And the absolute bottom of it is, when they get so good, you won't be able to spot them at all. With helmets, in some circumstances, this may already have happened, but, short of a faker admitting to it, how will you ever know? :think:

 

Best Regards,

 

Prof

[CliffP]

The good news is that, no matter how accurate the reproduction of the actual wings are, it still requires a deal of skill on the part of the forger to finish them in an accurate fashion. It becomes more important for the collector to be able to recognize good pins, catches, the way they are attached to the wing, whether that maker used those attachments, colouring of the wing, etc. These are things that a forger with even a perfect wing will fall down on.

 

For example, go and look at the Helmet section of this forum. There you will see many examples of fake M1 or M2 helmets created using actual WWII shells, but failing on some detail of fitment (bales, straps, attachments, type of paint, paint chemistry etc.). Collectors of these items have had to raise their game over the last few years to separate the good from the bad. And I'm sure that they fail from time to time, but I think they succeed most of the time. The bad news here is that the serious fakers raise their game too. And the worse news is that I'm certain that they read forums like this to see how fakes are spotted. It's a matter of 'professional' pride to improve next time, and not get spotted. And the absolute bottom of it is, when they get so good, you won't be able to spot them at all. With helmets, in some circumstances, this may already have happened, but, short of a faker admitting to it, how will you ever know? :think:

 

Best Regards,

 

Prof

:thumbsup:

 

Many thanks Prof for keeping this thread on track and moving forward.

 

Because it's impossible to predict the future of a technology that is rapidly evolving every day, there should be little doubt in any of our minds that it will only improve... thus making it harder for future generations of collectors to distinguish the differences between what is original and that which could have been reproduced. While in full agreement that the current risk to our hobby is not very great for those who are more advanced collectors, your input supports the discussion that all of us must continue to stay vigilant.

 

The fact remains that whatever our level of experience, none of us should loose sight that the manufacturers of CAD/CAM machinery will continue to fine tune their software; future software that will continue to provide the better tools necessary for shameless makers of copies and/or reproductions to improve or simplify the design and milling of more sophisticated dies and molds that they will need to stay in the game.

 

Best wishes,

 

Cliff

 

 

 

:wink2:

[mshaw]

I completely agree with you Cliff about the current risk to wing collecting. The risk magnifies as we move forward and the fakers achieve perfection. And at some point, I believe they will. One could argue that they have just about effectively killed the market for Firmin and Gaunt wings. Are Amico and A.E. up next? Unfortunately, as someone else posted, this forum is probably the first place they come for information about how to manufacture their wares.

 

Mark

[pfrost]

Here is a link to one of Russ Huff's Wings and Things magazines that was published in the late 1980's-early 1990's. This particular one dates from 20 years ago and specifically talked about the many different fakes. I recall reading some articles about the old dies still existing and companies being able to restrike wings (not even having to worry about making new dies--the old ones are still there and available) at a moments notice. It has some interesting articles (and it also spells out the doom of our hobby a couple of decades ago!) :w00t:

 

http://www.alpinebooks.com/?page=shop/flyp...b026a0009f135cc

 

 

No doubt fakes and fakery will continue to bedevil the hobby, but don't listen to me, go try a little experiment.

 

Right now on ebay, if you do a search for WWI pilot wings, you will likely get about 50-100 auction hits on any single week of some sort of wing badge (I know because I search every week). About 2/3 of those auction hits will be "collector copies" and easy to avoid. Almost all the rest will be some sort of junk wing (maybe a NS Meyer restrike, maybe an obvious cast piece, and maybe a few of the "House of Swords" Dallas wing knock offs). Rarely (about one or two wings every 3-6 months), a GOOD WWI wing will become available for sale. For example, a couple of weeks ago, a nice Dallas wing came up in auction. At about the same rate (1 or 2 every 3 to 6 months) a wing may come up that is something that needs more study and careful examination. A little more analysis and care because it may have some red flags or warning bells. Maybe something is off on it, maybe it is a pattern rarely seen, or frequently faked, or a "one off" type. A wing that could be good, but could also be a good fake.

 

My point is, that frankly what I don't see is 50-100 auctions of near perfect WWI reproductions. I don't see 100's of Made in China, "to perfect to tell from the original" Luxenbergs, Tiffani, Haltom's, Shreve's, Eisenstands, Blackintons, etc. What I do see is a ton of common wings on ebay, a fair number of obvious cast fakes and NS Meyer restrikes, the same set of A&C or Gaunt wings being sold by the same few guys, and lots of "collector copies" wings. One day it may change, but I am pretty sure we have been waiting for that day for well over 20 years now. Just my 2 cents....

[CliffP]

:think:

 

I am in full agreement that the current risk of CAD/CAM technology to our hobby is not great for an advanced collector like Patrick or the younger but diligent collector striving to reach the same lever of experience as he has; therefore, I don't accept the contention that CAD/CAM might ultimately destroy this hobby. The hobby is here to stay for a long time to come but what cannot be denied, and it's the very reason why I find the subject of CAD/CAM so fascinating, is that as its technology continues to improve it will have some affected on this hobby; therefore, why not want to learn more about it?

 

Perhaps that is why John started this thread? Unlike some who may not worry about a few freshmen just entering the hobby getting singed along the way, I believe John does worry. I worry too and hopefully this tread will continue in a constructive and potentially informative manner.

 

Cheers to all,

 

Cliff

 

[John Cooper]

Cliff you are correct!

 

This forum IMHO is here to serve the collecting community and be a place for free exchange of information which is KEY to the continued health of the hobby and in my mind the continued interest in our nations history. I think my motto in my signature says it all for me.

 

Anyone who follows this sub-forum can see new folks asking questions and learning about the hobby but also see more experienced collectors share their wealth of knowledge and experience along with some of their collection to the benefit of all.

 

We are all in this together!

 

Cheers

John

[militarymodels]

Any thing that's collectible and profitable, there would be faked items out there. However, despite the advance of technology with more sophisticated faked stuff, there are always new ways of detecting the fakes based on one's experience, learning from the known original items, the experienced collectors, guts feeling... The German memorabilia have been faked for so long with the greatest and latest technology but the collectors always find ways to dectect these "suckers" sooner or later, and that's why these kind of forums are extremely helpful and important. My sincere thanks to the founder(s) and contributors!

One rhetorical question slight off the topic but relatively relevant, if we worry too much about the fakes, why would we even allow one or two known fakers educating and influencing their so call "expert" opinions on us in this forum instead of boycotting them and just keep it among us collectors? As I've seen in the past, some collectors from this forum even asked the faker to confirm if the wings were faked and if they were produced by him. Sad but scarry huh

Regards,

Lonny