NS Meyer Airship wing - Originals vs. Restrikes

[bschwartz]

Meyer wings are always a hot bed of discussion especially when it comes to the rarer items like airship wings or technical observer wings. Since this forum is all about education I decided I should post my latest purchase and open it up for discussion and continuing education for everyone. First off this was a recent eBay purchase so some of you probably have already seen the wing. Granted Meyer airship wings show up on eBay all the time but this one was different. I personally believe this to be a period wing however all thoughts and opinions contrary to that are welcome as are opinions that support it. I'm very open to a spirited discussion. Prior to bidding on the wing I compared the pictures to two known good, period wings from Cliff's collection that are currently on my site. They are linked here http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/usaaf/airshi...psterling.shtml and here http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/usaaf/airshi...erairship.shtml. While not exact matches on the back they were close enough to Cliff's wings to cause me to dig a little deeper. Cliff's wing with the open catch (like the wing I purchased) had the shield on the pin side of the wing and the words "NS MEYER NEW YORK" stamped beneath the clutch. The wing I purchased didn't have the additional words by the clutch and the hallmark was on the catch side however other than that it was a very close match. The other wing had only the hallmark (again on the pin side) and the word "sterling" on the other wing. I conferred with Cliff prior to bidding and he agreed that it was worth taking a shot at the wing because it sure looked good from what could be seen. The wing arrived today and we are both 100% convinced it's a period wing.

 

Here's the pros of the wing:

 

- It was being sold by Daniel Griffin (dmgriff59 on eBay) who has always been a solid seller. I've bought many things from him and have always been pleased. One of the best sellers on eBay for wings in my opinion.

- Comparison to Cliff's wings was very favorable with the above noted exceptions

- Cliff agreed it was worth a shot and agreed that it appears to be a period wing after I sent him detailed photos after receiving the wing

- The wing is clearly die struck

- The pin and catch are silver soldered

- The pin is the stop hinge type of pin not the weak pin that falls open to 180 degrees on many of the Meyer restrikes

- The open catch is a good sign as few of the restrikes have an open catch. I have a 1930s Meyer Command Pilot with this same open catch.

- Incised, clearly stamped hallmark

 

And the real kicker for me:

 

- There is a small imperfection on the back of the wing that looks to have been imprinted by the forcer that stamps the back of the badge. This imperfection, a series of tiny vertical lines, matches exactly with one of Cliff's badges as can be seen on the photos below. The likelihood of a restrike having the exact same back imperfection as a known good wing is highly unlikely unless it was a cast badge and this is clearly a die struck badge and measures 3 3/16".

 

Cons of the wing:

 

- Hallmarked on the other side of the badge than Cliffs wing - although we know Meyer stamped their wings in all manner on the back and I have a late 30s pattern Meyer Senior Pilot badge that has the hallmark in the same spot.

- It's a Meyer marked wing so it always has to be approached with a healthy skepticism

 

Without further ado here's the pictures. Let the discussion begin! For those who would like to see larger pictures of the badge (1600 pixels wide) click here

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Comparison of the imperfections on my wing and Cliff's known good wing

 

 

[John Cooper]

Bob,

 

Thanks for posting this as I am sure it will be an interesting discussion! The first thing I noticed was that is appears that the open catch is a replacment as it "appears" (I may be wrong) that there was a different fitting that is now partially covered by the solder. Thoughts from hands on close up look?

 

Cheers

John

[bschwartz]

Yes, I noticed that too. There appears to be two pools of solder. An older one that can be see to the lower left of the existing catch and the catch that is there itself. Both pools seem to have aged the same. The lower left location wouldn't have worked well with the position of the pin. It would have bent it down to the left. The pin hinge itself does not appear to have been replaced and the aging of the pin and rivet seem to be consistent with the aging and toning of the wing and solder pool underneath the hinge. I think it's original to the wing. Whether the catch is original to the wing is hard to say.

[armillary_journey]

Congratulations Bob! That is beyond cool. Now look, if you and Cliff both think that is a good wing, it is.

 

Both of you can't be wrong on the same wing. I just wouldn't believe that.

 

Thanks for sharing that magnificent piece of history. :thumbsup:

 

AJ

[bschwartz]

Well I appreciate the vote of confidence but just because we think it's so doesn't necessarily make it so. That's the thing with collecting, there are few hard and fast facts with this stuff. Especially when it comes to Meyer wings which is why I wanted to post these and get the discussion started. I'm comfortable with them but I always love learning so if I missed something I want to know it. I'm not beyond making mistakes, I've got a bag full of fakes to prove it. I will say I felt a heck of a lot better about the wings once I got them in hand and when I saw the same imperfection in the back as on Cliff's wing. That would be very hard for someone to fake without casting and if they cast this wing it would have picked up the hallmark on the other side of the wing. Anyhow, looking forward to other people's opinions.

[John Cooper]

Here is a quick question - are all the restrike wings marked the same? I have never taken note... the reason I asked is because the restrike example I have has the meyer shield with reverse lettering.

 

John

[bschwartz]

You know, I'm not sure. I haven't held a ton of the restrikes. I see them all the time but I rarely stop to study them very much. Also most people don't post very detailed photos of the restrikes. As you know from the other Meyer restrikes out there people will mark them in all different manners. There are raised hallmarks, incised hallmarks, sterling marks, reversed hallmarks and even hallmarks from other companies. It's hard to say one thing that all the Meyer restrikes have in common. A fellow forum member did send me some photos of a Meyer marked airship badge they were looking at in an antique store but unfortunately the details are not enough to make them forum worthy. He did say that under a loupe you could see that the hallmark was reversed. However a reversed hallmark doesn't make a Meyer badge bad. I saw a pilot wing in Milwaukee years ago at a veteran's house that had the reversed hallmark and it was 100% legit. Meyer wings are a crazy topic which is why I posted this badge to hopefully stir up some discussion. I'm hoping more people will weigh in.

[CliffP]

I haven't held a ton of the restrikes. I see them all the time but I rarely stop to study them very much. Also most people don't post very detailed photos of the restrikes.

Bob,

 

At the top of the photos shown below is an example of a Meyer restrike I purchased from dealer Alan Beckman back in 1984 for reference. That's right, it was purchased 27 years ago.

 

One interesting detail about the restrike is the Meyer hallmark on the back. It is a lot smaller in size than the larger hallmark found on your badge and the one in my collection. That is but one detail other collectors should be aware of.

 

Adding to that, notice how legible the letters are in the larger hallmark found on your badge, you can actually make out the letters in it. That too is a good sign.

 

Now there is something else to consider when looking at the restrike. Notice how smooth the inside-rim is that follows the complete outline of the restrike. That's because the newer force tool, also known as the reverse die or male backplate, which was used to punch the metal into the die when making the restrike did not follow the curves or wrinkles as well as the original tool did when the older badges were made.

 

An added reference:

 

For those that might be interested in knowing more about how an airship pilot wing badge might actually have been made, there was an old thread posted back on February 6, 2009 that might be helpful. Go to:

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...showtopic=35949

[MAA]

Hey Bob, for what its worth ~ I love the wing and feel its a period original. My very first Airship wing came from Carl Robin in the early 80's, and it was identical to the wing you have. The whole Meyer stigma is a bit crazy to me, given they are just one of most all makers being reproduced in some fashion today. I buy Meyer wings all the time and will continue to buy Meyer wings as a collector and dealer. You have a great example of an early Meyer Airship ~ nice buy :thumbsup: Dave

 

BTW ~ I bid on this wing too

[bschwartz]

Thanks for the input Dave! One clarification I need to make that was pointed out to me by another collector is my reference to a 1930s Command Pilot wing. I meant to use 1930's PATTERN Command pilot wing. The Command Pilot didn't exist in the 30s. Here's the wing I was referencing. My bad on the typo. Sorry for any confusion.

[pfrost]

Hi Bob,

 

For what its worth, I recently had a similar conundrum about a NS Meyer airship wing. I took some very detailed scans of it after studying it with as much attention to detail as possible. In my case, I eventually felt that while some things were off, just enough small things (and one big thing) was enough to make me decide I couldn't rest easy with the wing. That is the problem with Meyer's (in particular) in that you have to decide for yourself. No matter what, someone will always have a "yeah but..." counter argument for you.

 

In any case, I would say it sure looks like a good one to me. :thumbsup:

 

Here is the one I sent back. Frankly, from the front it looked excellent. It had the same series of very fine flaws that the original has -- both in the lines in the gas bag and the small pits and flaws in the rigging. Further, the fine detail was there, the edges looked great, and the patina seemed fine.

[pfrost]

Lucky for me, I was able to get detailed scans of Cliff's Russ' and Art's wings to compare.

 

The back of my wing was very interesting. The NS Meyer shield was large, but had the reverse letters. The wing was also finished with a "frosting" type coating. It wasn't a paint, but it looked different from other NS Meyer finishes (including the restrikes). The wing showed areas where the frosting had worn off and the metal underneath was very tarnished (as one would expect of silver). Even areas of finish had been lost from some of the areas around the sterling. I didn't know what to think, but it looked like it had age, was factory applied, and was original to the wing.

 

On the other hand, I did notice that the area in the back where the balloon was recessed, lacked the same sharp and crisp detail of original wings.

 

The killer was that the wing pin, hinge an catch were wrong for an original Meyer wing (and in fact closely matched a known restrike that I had in the collection).

 

So, while the finish and age of the wing looked interesting, the rest of the wing failed the smell test.

[pfrost]

Close up of the hallmark.

 

I studied this wing for a great deal of time, and eventually decided that it was no good. Your wing seems spot on with the rest of the boys. Good deal!

[bschwartz]

Thanks for weighing in on the topic and for the excellent detail photos of the restrike badge you had. That's exactly what I was hoping this thread would become, a bit of a primer of sorts on Meyer airship wings. There are obviously many more restrikes than there are originals but having the photos in this thread is a great place for people to start. Meyer will always be a maker of great contention but a little education goes a long way in telling the good from the bad. This is my favorite thing about the forum. It's a free education to those who want to take the time to learn. And I swear I learn something new about this hobby virtually every time I come to this site. Thanks again for posting. Much appreciated.

[CliffP]

Here is a quick question - are all the restrike wings marked the same?

 

John

Here are some pics of another N.S. Meyer restrike.

 

Note that on this example it sports the always to be avoided... :devil: small-size Meyer hallmark should you ever see it on another airship pilot badge!!

Cliff

[graham]

Here are some pics of another N.S. Meyer restrike.

 

Note that on this example it sports the always to be avoided... :devil: small-size Meyer hallmark should you ever see it on another airship pilot badge!!

Cliff

 

Nice to see restrike engraved on the reverse :thumbsup:

 

Graham.

[rustywings]

Terrific information being shared in this thread! Now, lets put it to a test for those who are newer to the game. A Meyer hallmarked Airship wing was just listed on ebay (#260725179839). Opening bid is $250 bucks. Real or restrike? What do you think? Here are some images from the listing.

[rustywings]

A couple of more images of ebay listing #260725179389. What do you think?

[bschwartz]

I think that new eBay wing is a restrike. Bad pin, bad hallmark. Small shield at an angle.

[John Cooper]

Here are some pics of another N.S. Meyer restrike.

 

Note that on this example it sports the always to be avoided... :devil: small-size Meyer hallmark should you ever see it on another airship pilot badge!!

Cliff

 

 

Thanks for the photos Cliff - are the letters reversed on that logo?

 

John

[CliffP]

Thanks for the photos Cliff - are the letters reversed on that logo?

John

 

Hello John,

 

Yes, the letters are reversed.

 

.. BTW, does anybody know why the letters are reversed?

 

I am not well up on Computer-Aided Design/Computer-Aided Manufacturing (CAD/CAM) technology but it has been around for many years and will basically allow most any one to either fabricate, restore, mill or duplicate any object needed when using the original for a guide.

 

Duncan Campbell and I had a couple of discussions about this about twenty or twenty-five years ago after Alan Beckman of Fox Military Equipment Co. was quoted as saying he could duplicate any badge using the new CAD/CAM technology; therefore, we believed that when he acquired some of the original N. S. Meyer wing badge dies he did not get the original force tools, also known as reverse dies or male backplates, to go with them that were needed to punch (produce) new restrikes. His solution may have been to have new force tools fabricated via CAD/CAM technology, using various size N.S. Meyer hallmarks, but when the hallmarks were copied, they were copied backwards... and that may explain why the letters on the hallmarks are in reversed order.

 

:think: Changing the subject a bit, I also believe more sophisticated CAD/CAM technology is being used by the Chinese to make a number of WWII wing badge copies such as the Firmin Service pilot badges discussed in thread... http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...showtopic=98853

 

Cliff

 

 

.

[John Cooper]

Cliff,

 

You have touched upon an interesting point which I think deserves a seperate thread. As for the small Meyer with the reversed letters it is a bit odd but maybe if we dig a bit we may be able to determine if this mark was used on other insignia which has not been reproduced.

 

I wonder if any of the members have other Meyer insignia i.e. rank or similar that uses this specific mark?

 

Cheers

John

[bschwartz]

I did find this photo of Meyer collar insignia with a reverse hallmark. It makes no sense to me why they would have struck their hallmark in reverse but I can't believe that someone would be faking these collar brass. Please note that this is not my image, it was copied from the original post on Wehrmacht Awards which can be found here It was taken from a post from member DMD, my apologies if this causes any heartburn. Copied here solely for reference purposes.

 

[CliffP]

I did find this photo of Meyer collar insignia with a reverse hallmark. It makes no sense to me why they would have struck their hallmark in reverse but I can't believe that someone would be faking these collar brass.

Well, whatever the reason that collar insignia looks pretty good to me so maybe it was just another theory to be thrown out the window?

 

:crying: I'm on my fourth cocktail for the evening and have run out of ideas.

.

[DMD]

Bob, I'm glad you found that image on the WAF. It's public domain material for education.

 

I have handled or seen photos of lots of common metal insignial that have the Meyer reverse hallmark. All of them appeared to be legitimate to me. As you said, it's hard to believe someone is making the effort to make counterfeit AAF lapel pins. I remember examining a pair of clutchback wings/prop pins at a flea market. They had the reverse hallmark and too many characteristics that said they were genuine.

 

I don't have it, but Huff addresses the reverse hallmark in his second book. He said he questioned whether they were reproductions until he started getting them from veterans.

 

Search this forum and you'll find other collectors have seen the reverse hallmark on very common stuff.