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Camillus Fighting Knife


gijoeou812
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Hello, I was hoping that someone may be able to help me date this nice old Camillus knife I picked up a couple of weeks ago. I was told that it came from a WW2 Vet but that was the story and it may or may not be true. I have posted a couple of pictures of what the knife looks like and can send more if you need to see more. The knife is not marked USN or USMC, it is only marked US as you can see in the pictures. There are no marking on the there side of the blade. The sheath is aged and has a dark brown patina to it, but it is brown for sure (not black).

Any and all help that you can give me would be very helpful. Thank you and please let me know if you have any questions.

 

Best Regards,

GIJoeou812

 

post-14247-1294777344.jpgpost-14247-1294777333.jpg

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post-14247-1294779308.jpgpost-14247-1294779322.jpg

Hello, I was hoping that someone may be able to help me date this nice old Camillus knife I picked up a couple of weeks ago. I was told that it came from a WW2 Vet but that was the story and it may or may not be true. I have posted a couple of pictures of what the knife looks like and can send more if you need to see more. The knife is not marked USN or USMC, it is only marked US as you can see in the pictures. There are no marking on the there side of the blade. The sheath is aged and has a dark brown patina to it, but it is brown for sure (not black).

Any and all help that you can give me would be very helpful. Thank you and please let me know if you have any questions.

 

Best Regards,

GIJoeou812

 

post-14247-1294777344.jpgpost-14247-1294777333.jpg

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Welcome to the forum.

 

It appears what you have is a pre-1974 Camillus Mark 2 fighting knife. I date its manufacture to before 1974 because, in 1974 the "NY" stamped after the town name of Camillus was discontinued.

 

It could very well have been used by a soldier during WWII or perhaps acquired by the vet sometime thereafter. Either way, it is a very nice example that has that "been there and done that" look.

 

Tim

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This is a Knife, Combat, Sheathed Specification MIL-K-20277 as manufactured by the Camillus Cutlery Company between 1962 when they began supplying them on contract to the military until February 1974 when the N.Y. was dropped from the marking line. It is a general issue item to all services, although most well known in the Marines.

 

If the scabbard is black. it dates from near the end of the date range shown above. Earlier production by Camillus was in what collectors call "oxblood" (not an official designation) which is a very dark brown with a trace of red. This often appears black under anything but bright light.

 

For an excellent article on this knife, see Frank Trzaska's article titled The Post War Combat Mark 2 in the January 2005 issue of Knife World.

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This is a Knife, Combat, Sheathed Specification MIL-K-20277 as manufactured by the Camillus Cutlery Company between 1962 when they began supplying them on contract to the military until February 1974 when the N.Y. was dropped from the marking line. It is a general issue item to all services, although most well known in the Marines.

 

If the scabbard is black. it dates from near the end of the date range shown above. Earlier production by Camillus was in what collectors call "oxblood" (not an official designation) which is a very dark brown with a trace of red. This often appears black under anything but bright light.

 

For an excellent article on this knife, see Frank Trzaska's article titled The Post War Combat Mark 2 in the January 2005 issue of Knife World.

 

Gary makes some important points about how to refine the dating of your knife. However, I cannot tell from the photographs presented whether the leather handle is 'oxblood' colored or black nor can I tell whether the leather of the scabbard is black or a really dark brown or a lighter brown/tan that is heavily soiled through use and age.

 

As such, without clearer close up photos taken under natural light (preferably indirect and direct sunlight), I see no reason to discount the fact the knife was owned by a WWII vet. It may have been manufactured before 1962 or between 1962 and 1974 as suggested by Gary.

 

Tim

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This is a Knife, Combat, Sheathed Specification MIL-K-20277 as manufactured by the Camillus Cutlery Company between 1962...

 

Gary,

 

I am curious learn how you can ID the knife as being made after 1962. What am I missing :think: ? My old eyes cannot tell if the handle is 'oxblood' colored or not (or the color of the scabbard for that matter). Can you tell its age based upon how the pommel is peened?

 

Thanks for the continuing education ;) .

 

TIm

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Tim- There were a lot of WW2 veterans still on active duty in the 60's, right up into the early 70's. It could have belonged to a WW2 vet. We know the knife is pre-74, and having owned and carried one at that time, I believe the scabbard is late also. Based on color, and pics of others that were dyed or darkened. When my scabbard wore, I'd put brown shoe polish & buff it, to keep it from drying out. Plus water was tough on the late scabbards, they'd turn gray around the bottom and stitches. Just my opinion, and experiences. SKIP

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Tim- There were a lot of WW2 veterans still on active duty in the 60's, right up into the early 70's. It could have belonged to a WW2 vet. We know the knife is pre-74, and having owned and carried one at that time, I believe the scabbard is late also. Based on color, and pics of others that were dyed or darkened. When my scabbard wore, I'd put brown shoe polish & buff it, to keep it from drying out. Plus water was tough on the late scabbards, they'd turn gray around the bottom and stitches. Just my opinion, and experiences. SKIP

 

Thank you all for your wonderful feedback and input it has been very educational. I will try to get a couple of pictures taken in daylight and post them as soon as I can. So not every one agrees on the age but everyone agrees that it is military....correct?

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Based on the markings and photographs, I would agree with Gary's assessment as to the production timeframe. Also, I'm pretty sure that the pommel would be pinned as opposed to peened.

 

And yes, It's military

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Also, I'm pretty sure that the pommel would be pinned as opposed to peened.

 

Pinned as opposed to peened if it were WWII vintage versus post-1962 manufactured? Or the opposite? Also, I think I am correct is saying that the markings do not allow one to discriminate between pre- and post-1962 manufacture. Only color (of handle/scabbard) and the mode of pommel attachment can do that.

 

Tim

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Pinned as opposed to peened if it were WWII vintage versus post-1962 manufactured? Or the opposite? Also, I think I am correct is saying that the markings do not allow one to discriminate between pre- and post-1962 manufacture. Only color (of handle/scabbard) and the mode of pommel attachment can do that.

 

Tim

 

Camillus made knives of this pattern in WW2 and again after 1962. All those marked only U.S. over CAMILLUS N.Y. are post 1962. In WW2 they were marked either USN or USMC, never just US.

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Camillus made knives of this pattern in WW2 and again after 1962. All those marked only U.S. over CAMILLUS N.Y. are post 1962. In WW2 they were marked either USN or USMC, never just US.

 

 

AH!, I did not know this. I thought that the "U.S." and USN-marked knives were issued to sailors and the "U.S." and USMC-marked knives were issued to Marines and that non USN or USMC marked ones (those with 'oxblood' colored handles) were issued to WWII Army infantrymen, etc. I also was unaware that the "CAMILLUS N.Y." was not used prior to 1962.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

Tim

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Tim,

I'm going from memory here, but I'm pretty sure the Camillus military issue MK2 markings go as follows:

 

WW2: USMC or USN and Camillus, NY...either tang stamped or guard stamped

1962 - 1974: US over Camillus, NY on the tang only

1974 - 1989: US over Camillus on the tang only

 

If I'm wrong I'm sure Gary will set me straight

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Tim,

I'm going from memory here, but I'm pretty sure the Camillus military issue MK2 markings go as follows:

 

WW2: USMC or USN and Camillus, NY...either tang stamped or guard stamped

1962 - 1974: US over Camillus, NY on the tang only

1974 - 1989: US over Camillus on the tang only

 

If I'm wrong I'm sure Gary will set me straight

 

 

Yes, I think you have it right :thumbsup: . Being both a Moderator and "The Man" when it comes to edged weapons, perhaps Gary will make a sticky out of this post of yours ;) .

 

Tim

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Yes, I think you have it right :thumbsup: . Being both a Moderator and "The Man" when it comes to edged weapons, perhaps Gary will make a sticky out of this post of yours ;) .

 

Tim

 

I am amazed at the wealth of information and the amount of knowledge that can be found on this forum. I have been a member of the forum for several months now but have not taken the opportunity to tap into this knowledge. You guys have been so much help providing this information about my knife.

I will be sure to get more pictures of my knife of the daylight when possible. Have to work late today and tomorrow so it may be Friday or Saturday before I am able to add them.

Now we know that the knife is probably dated between 1962-1974, and it is military issue can anyone tell me what the value of this knife would be? I know it is not anything real rare but I have no idea what these things are worth. I collect military items and have for 20+ years, but knives have not been anything I have focused on.

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To be perfectly honest, I'd just follow ebay listings and see what ones in like condition bring. Things have changed so much over the last few years that I wouldn't dare wager a guess. I have 2 or 3 of them in the same date range and in near mint condition that I know I paid maybe between $40 - $80 for each one. This is in the last 5 or 6 years. I would not be surprised if they were going for double that or more now.

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Here are some pics of what I think represent the variety of M2's made during the Vietnam era. The first Utica Cut was issued to a Marine in 1960. He took it with him to Vietnam in 67. I've been told this version goes back to even the Korean era. The next three all have the later (oxblood) finish. I've been told that the leather was treated with an advanced fungicide to resist jungle rot. I don't know if the color is related to that.

 

DCP_1358.jpg

DCP_1359.jpg

DCP_1360.jpg

DCP_1361.jpg

DCP_1362.jpg

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Here are some pics of what I think represent the variety of M2's made during the Vietnam era. The first Utica Cut was issued to a Marine in 1960. He took it with him to Vietnam in 67. I've been told this version goes back to even the Korean era. The next three all have the later (oxblood) finish. I've been told that the leather was treated with an advanced fungicide to resist jungle rot. I don't know if the color is related to that.

 

DCP_1358.jpg

DCP_1359.jpg

DCP_1360.jpg

DCP_1361.jpg

DCP_1362.jpg

 

Sactroop, I for one can not see the photos....could you try again? :crying:

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That Utica on the left is nice! Everyone I see has generally seen hard use and abuse. Very Nice Grouping! SKIP

Let's try again.

DCP_1358.jpgDCP_1359.jpgDCP_1360.jpgDCP_1361.jpgDCP_1362.jpg

 

Is anyone else having trouble seeing these?

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Your "brown" Utica is one of the earliest of the new generation of the Knife, Combat. It the Marine actually got it in 1960, he would have gotten one of the first batch as Utica production began in late 1960. They were not made at the time of the Korean War - any used before 1960 would have been WW2 production.

 

The scabbard is also early and correct. By the end of 1961 the specification was changed from 9 rivets to 7 as is shown on your dark Utica. The change to Rot Treatment started in 1962 and Utica was the only company to have brown scabbards and handles, as by the time Camillus started in late 1962 the paranitrophenol treatment had begun - this produced the dark almost black color called oxblood by collectors. In 1966 the color was official changed to black, although a lot of Camillus production remained oxblood for some years afterward well into the 1970s.

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Your 1st Utica was likely made between 1960 and sometime in 1962. Your 2nd one after sometime in early 1962. I believe the Uticas are the only ones made in the second production period of Mk2s (starting in 1960) that still had curved guards.

On 11/20/61 the sheath specs changed for Mk2s from 9 to 7 rivets. The washers for the handles were treated with a chemical before assembly to prevent rot, and the ox-blood color coating was applied after assembly.

The Conetta production started either during 1966 or shortly after.

The official designation of these knives is MIL-K-20227 as of 1/18/60, but I still call them all Mk2s (it's just so much easier)

 

 

Sorry, Gary...I didn't mean to walk over your reply. I was still typing when you posted (I'm slow!)

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