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Vietnam war era Phoenix Program patch

Started by Patchcollector , Jan 01 2011 07:41 PM

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#101 90thDivHistory

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 12:02 PM

Great, would you care to share your photos Saskatoon?? (If no, please answer in the negative so I know you've read this).

I have my doubts this patch was ever worn, but I'd like to see your photographic evidence to prove otherwise.

Steve

Steve,
I am with you on this one, I keep checking this post every time it pops back up top to see the photos that Saskatoon says he has of the patch being worn, but nothing ever shows up. I would hope that if someone had real pics of the patch being worn it would be shown quite quickly and end the debate. Everything else about Phoenix has been discussed here and the topic of SOG wearing insignia has even popped up, which is always great and welcome by the way, but the original topic of wether this Phoenix patch was ever worn in Vietnam has still yet to be proved in my eyes.

Saskatoon,
If you do have these photos please post them with a watermark or whatever you need, but I think many of us here would love to see these pics that you say you have and end the debate.

Bookie,
Your photos are great, thanks for confirming what I was told by Project Delta guys that operated in Cambodia during Operation Ares out of Dong Xoai. They never wore any insignia when crossing the fence, and would be declared MIA and presumed dead if captured or complications arose in their extraction.

Thanks, to all who have contributed to this topic it has really been a great read and I have learned quite a few things I did not know.
Best of luck to us all in finding those rare pieces that still exist, even if we do not know of them now.
Respectfully,
Tyler Alberts

#102 vintageproductions

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 01:38 PM

Tyler-I understand the points you are trying to make about the patches being worn, but early in this thread it was said that there were no patches, pins, plaques, etc from this unit. But yet, two posts ago here is one of the plaques. This is a classic Vietnamese made plaque from the wartime not a new import piece. So, just using some common sense with this, if there were plaques given out, there were patches being worn.
I know someone on this post had a issue when I compared Phoenix to SOG , SEALS, etc, but I am going to go back to the same theory. Was inisgnia worn on missions / operations ? No. Were they worn around camps? Without a doubt they were worn. We have seen numerous photos appear in the last couple of years showing SOG members wearing RT patches, that were supposedly never worn. One thing that has to be remembered hear is the vast majority of the members of these elite units were young, late teens - early 20's. They wore whatever inisgnia they wanted becuase they felt they were "Invincible", why else would all the SOG patches, that were used be teams, have so much "cheating death" images? I know Spike has photos of SEALS wearing unauthorized insignia also. So now we just need to find that one collector out there who's only focus is Phoenix and who has sat down and interviewed former members and copied all their documents and photos. I am sure a photo will appear of someone wearing a patch. Like I said in an earlier posting, years ago I have a Vietnamese tailor made sports shirt that had the Phoenix insignia directly embroidered on the pocket. Was this authorized? No, but when has that ever stopped a solider, during wartime from wearing a piece of insignia they want to. Your Kraut Killers patch is a prime example. It wasn't authorized, but it was obvisouly avaiable if a GI wanted one. Same this can be said for the 30th Division's FDR's SS patches.
I am not posting the above to stir up an online controversy, I am just trying to use common sense when dealing with insignia and GI's during Vietnam.
Bob

#103 90thDivHistory

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 04:48 PM

Tyler-I understand the points you are trying to make about the patches being worn, but early in this thread it was said that there were no patches, pins, plaques, etc from this unit. But yet, two posts ago here is one of the plaques. This is a classic Vietnamese made plaque from the wartime not a new import piece. So, just using some common sense with this, if there were plaques given out, there were patches being worn.
I know someone on this post had a issue when I compared Phoenix to SOG , SEALS, etc, but I am going to go back to the same theory. Was inisgnia worn on missions / operations ? No. Were they worn around camps? Without a doubt they were worn. We have seen numerous photos appear in the last couple of years showing SOG members wearing RT patches, that were supposedly never worn. One thing that has to be remembered hear is the vast majority of the members of these elite units were young, late teens - early 20's. They wore whatever inisgnia they wanted becuase they felt they were "Invincible", why else would all the SOG patches, that were used be teams, have so much "cheating death" images? I know Spike has photos of SEALS wearing unauthorized insignia also. So now we just need to find that one collector out there who's only focus is Phoenix and who has sat down and interviewed former members and copied all their documents and photos. I am sure a photo will appear of someone wearing a patch. Like I said in an earlier posting, years ago I have a Vietnamese tailor made sports shirt that had the Phoenix insignia directly embroidered on the pocket. Was this authorized? No, but when has that ever stopped a solider, during wartime from wearing a piece of insignia they want to. Your Kraut Killers patch is a prime example. It wasn't authorized, but it was obvisouly avaiable if a GI wanted one. Same this can be said for the 30th Division's FDR's SS patches.
I am not posting the above to stir up an online controversy, I am just trying to use common sense when dealing with insignia and GI's during Vietnam.
Bob

Bob,
I am not sure I understand your reply to my most recent comment. I agree completely with the information you have stated above. My most recent post was regarding the fact that a member, the same one I believe who had issue with your commaprrison to the other elite units, posted on this topic and said that he had photos of the patches being worn. I was just asking for him to post them and end the debate on if they were worn so we could all see what they looked like. If it is in camp, fine, if iti is in the field, WOW! But it is odd for me to hear someone say that someone else is "100% incorrect" about them being worn in the field and not back his statement up with some type of evidence other than his opinion. I do not know this guy, but it is clear he said he had photos, so I just hope he hopes to share them with the people who have been following this thread.
Take Care,
Tyler Alberts
That is all my comments referred to.

#104 5th.army.guy

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 05:01 PM

Cool patch!

#105 thefallenbuddha

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 12:05 AM

No activity in this thread since January...now is as good a time as any to add a posting, I suppose.

Below, is an item I recently acquired. The insignia is chain stitched on the pocket. The design matches very closely to the photograph posted earlier in this thread showing the Phung Hoang sign in Vietnamese. (Sorry, I have no desire to post detailed up-close photos, already too much material online for fakers)

I think a basic point to consider is the Phung Hoang was an RVN military organization. And, as any Vietnam collector or veteran can attest to, the RVN military had patches for everything, even military mail carriers by district.
More so, RVN troops (especially officers) were significantly more likely to wear insignia in field operations than their US counterparts. So, when looking at how these insignia were used, I think it is useful to differentiate between the habits of US personnel and US personnel organized indigenous teams vs. those entirely run by the RVN. And, also, it should be said the RVN Phung Hoang program continued and even expanded (as with everything else RVN military related) after the US withdrawal through 1975 - during which time use of these insignia would have likely also expanded.

And, lastly, not all of RVN Phung Hoang work was covert and cloak and dagger (though these activities certainly get the most historical attention). They also were involved with "political education" and other community type programs (besides just locating and targeting suspects).

As for US personnel, if involved with a contigent of Phung Hoang where the insignia was in use - acquiring a patch or two or having something made bearing the insignia isn't far fetched.

I have yet to meet an RVN veteran who identifies as having been involved with the Phung Hoang directly, but I do know PRU veterans who have said they wore insignia in the field (and are also keen to have replicas made for reunions). So, at least for me, these insignia are period and were worn - just not in the same way everywhere by everyone during its history......which pretty much is also true of all military insignia use in Vietnam.....

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#106 mhk

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 09:38 AM

6 months of inactivity...in my mind i was hoping that someone continues this thread.
anyway nice shirt...i quess its vn made pajama not Ben Baker's in Okinawa?
i also saw it when it was for sale

Mikko

#107 thefallenbuddha

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 11:56 AM

Yes, it is Viet made. And, I also saw it for sale, too, that is why I bought it...otherwise, it would have been more complicated to acquire.

#108 mhk

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 12:23 PM

Yes, it is Viet made. And, I also saw it for sale, too, that is why I bought it...otherwise, it would have been more complicated to acquire.

Yes agree but i mean it was quite long listed for sale before you bought it

Mikko

#109 all-bull

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 05:47 PM

fallenbuddha,
I don't think I have met you personally, but I fell in love with the shirt as soon as it was offered. Unfortunately, I could not get it at the time, and sat disappointed as it sold. Glad it went to a fellow collector though. I thought it was a great piece, and as fate had it, came up about the same time as this thread was hot. Anyway, hope to see it in person in one day. Congrats!

P.S. I hope SLI can shed some shed more light on the Phoenix Program. We are looking forward to whatever he has he say.

Edited by all-bull, 20 July 2011 - 05:50 PM.


#110 thefallenbuddha

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 07:41 PM

Yes agree but i mean it was quite long listed for sale before you bought it

Mikko


Ok, Mikko, thanks for the comment, but I don't really know what connection that has to this topic????.........
Also, as a buyer, I do not mark when an item is sold or not on the seller's website, that is the responsibility of that individual whenever he decides to do that.

Either way, how about we stay on the topic of the history and use of this insignia??

Edited by thefallenbuddha, 20 July 2011 - 07:48 PM.


#111 thefallenbuddha

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 07:44 PM

fallenbuddha,
I don't think I have met you personally, but I fell in love with the shirt as soon as it was offered. Unfortunately, I could not get it at the time, and sat disappointed as it sold. Glad it went to a fellow collector though. I thought it was a great piece, and as fate had it, came up about the same time as this thread was hot. Anyway, hope to see it in person in one day. Congrats!

P.S. I hope SLI can shed some shed more light on the Phoenix Program. We are looking forward to whatever he has he say.


All Bull,

No, I don't believe we have yet had the opportunity to meet in person, but perhaps next year at SOS? I am planning to attend.
Also, I have seen many of your items posted, which I have equally been in love with......but as I don't have some of these items in my collection yet, the affection remains unrequited.

I, also, look forward to more light being shed on this topic and further discussion on the history of this program and the use of insignia.

#112 Saskatoon Light Infantry

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 08:16 PM

This piece is representative of Viet Nam collecting in general:

1). It was part of a small group broken up and scattered in the wind.

2). It is now just an unnamed uniform from the Viet Nam War with no history.

So many pieces of Viet Nam memorabilia have ended up this way.



This is a South Vietnamese made civilian black pajama top with chained stitched PHUNG HOANG pocket patch. It was worn by an advisor who served in Kien Phong Province (IV Corps) in 1969. It is 100% original. Yes, it was actually worn in the field.

***Note: Chained stitched insignia was relatively common during the early years 1962-1965, particularly so in IV Corps. As the war dragged on, chained stitched insignia became less common and was quite rare by 1969.

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#113 kammo-man

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 09:00 AM

Great score Darwin.


If you ever want to sell that carpet let me know .........you know I love vintage rugs .


owen

#114 Jeff Ashenfelter

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 01:14 PM

Hi All,
I thought I would post a few pictures of a jungle jacket and a scarf that I own. The jungle jacket was owned by John S. Tilton who was the go to guy for the CIA in the phoenix program. This jacket and scarf was purchased directly from him by a long time collector who went to the same AIO meetings that he did. Tilton explained that this jacket/scarf was made up for ceremony's etc which may or may not have ever taken place. I offer these photos to further this thread that has been very informative at least to me.
I must also admit that in the past I have seen an original pocket hanger as well as a picture of W. Colby sitting behind a desk with a very large and ornate hand sewn Phoenix Program flag on the wall behind him. Jeff

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#115 Jeff Ashenfelter

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 01:16 PM

two more

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#116 Patchcollector

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Posted 23 July 2011 - 05:55 PM

Hahaa,here I am back after being 6 months "AWOL" from this site,and what do I see,my thread still alive and kickin'!Amazing! :lol2:
That's a nice shirt,I knew all along that my piece was authentic,yes it was an RVN organization,and Americans were"doing business" with them.
Surely a few advisors brought some stuff home with them,and this thread proves it. ;)
Glad to see some more great stuff coming out for our viewing pleasure. :twothumbup:

#117 thefallenbuddha

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 11:12 PM

This piece is representative of Viet Nam collecting in general:

1). It was part of a small group broken up and scattered in the wind.

2). It is now just an unnamed uniform from the Viet Nam War with no history.

So many pieces of Viet Nam memorabilia have ended up this way.
This is a South Vietnamese made civilian black pajama top with chained stitched PHUNG HOANG pocket patch. It was worn by an advisor who served in Kien Phong Province (IV Corps) in 1969. It is 100% original. Yes, it was actually worn in the field.


If anyone actually really knows the background/history of this particular shirt or "grouping" (if it did belong to a grouping), please PM me or post this information in this thread.
Over the past week, I have unsuccessfully appealed through PMs in response to this posting asking for information (i.e. name, etc) on who this advisor was, but the responses - at first quite vague - are now silent, and cause me to doubt their authenticity; especially as no one else I know who is familiar with this shirt seems to know of this information.

I agree fully with the importance to know as much about the background of an item as possible so that items, such as this, do not become "just an unnamed uniform from the Viet Nam War with no history". Therefore, I would only ask that this information (if available and credible) be presented. Otherwise, complaining about people not knowing - while giving the impression of holding such knowledge - but concurrently avoiding to provide it - is just hypocritical,
much less, presenting information which is not factual.

#118 nguoi tien su

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 09:11 AM

Interestingly enough, those patches appeared on ebay, sold as reproductions:

 

phoeni10.jpg

phoeni11.jpg

phoeni12.jpg

 

And one example of the back:

 

phoeni13.jpg

 

Outstanding making, vivid colors, high quality. Frightening to say the least.

 



#119 charlesclark

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 10:59 AM

hello everyone new to the forum caught this one last night.

my father was in PRU and I have some photos of the unit. But I have never seen an "ACTUAL" patch only the wing and sword. 

another person i know has a photo of himself at hq with a beret and a patch on the beret the one with the bat. 

 

heres a photo of the pru

i have more from 1968 time period this would be advisory team 39 or 45 phan rang my father is in the center.

4716718849_5aab6c5331_b.jpg



#120 charlesclark

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 11:03 AM

as you can see here too just the winged sabre

5298703064_c51684bb6b_b.jpg




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