Posted 03 January 2011 - 05:49 PM
I read the new posts and found them very interesting,and thought that I would reply to some.First,to noexpert,I apologize for not thanking you for the translation,belated thanks!
On your other points,I think that you may have misunderstood me.I was not in any way trying "to put you in your place" by my reply to you.I was trying to clarify the fact that
from the Wiki info I posted,it's clear that both sides were openly targeting each others "civilian" populace.I say "civilian",but many were doing work for the military,just wearing civilian
attire.There were many facets to the Phoenix/Phung Hoang program,not just the assassination squads.I think alot of people (myself included until I read more about it) tend to view the
Phoenix/Phung Hoang program from that perspective,just the death squads,but in fact,there was alot more going on,and I believe that many Vietnamese people knew about the program,because if they did'nt,then the objectives of the program were not being met.In other words,the program was meant to be known about by the populace,maybe not the details,but surely the results,as it was a
pacification program,and the more the people that lived there knew about it,perhaps the less they were willing to join the other side.While it was misused,I think that the term "evil" is a bit strong.
The Communist VCI (Viet Cong infrastructure)and NLF(National Liberation Front)were killing many civilians in South Vietnam,and the Phoenix/Phung Hoang program was created to counter the VCI/NLF.That's the way I understand it,and there are many web sources that have much more info about the Program.To sum it up,I think that the people that were most "in the dark" about the Program during the war were the people outside of Vietnam,i.e, the American public,and most of the other countries as well.
As to the "expert" that I "blew of"(f), I found his response troubling in the sense that whenever I hear someone say "never",I think of the old saying"Never say never"!.While it may be true
that he,in his own experience never saw any insignia,that should not be construed as meaning that there was never any insignia made,but that he just never saw any.Now as I revisit his post,
I realize that he does not come right out and say it,the way I took it is that the implication was no insignia was ever produced anywhere incountry during the war,period.If I am mistaken,
my apologies to the writer.As for my "cleverly" putting up little or no info about the patch itself,it's because I have little to no info on it,so I'm not sure how clever I am in this regard,I plead ignorance!If I have any info or provenance on anything that I post here,I will surely post it!
As for Gil,I respect his input,as he has alot of experience in researching fakes from this war.There's nothing wrong with asking questions,ever!
To jgawne's post,I have to say that "saying a patch belonged to Patton,and saying a patch is original,are two different things.Let's compare apples with apples!As I said before,I have no provenance
on this patch,as probably 95% of the stuff posted on this forum does'nt either.But by studying the construction,doing some research,using common sense brings me to believe that this is a war era,incountry made piece.If you don't want to believe it,that's fine,everyone has opinions.
Do I believe that this was worn?Yes I do,but as to who would have worn it,I do not know.My guess is that they were made up for some staff at an upper level.(?)
I think that Vietnamese wore these,probably not Americans,although an advisor may have brought some home.There are PRU patches,and "Secret" Police patches from
this war as well,and they did essentially the same functions,at times.I even have some OSS patches in my collection!Do I think operatives wore them on missions?Heck no!
But they exist.
To 05b4s,it's a Wiki article, the way Wiki works,sometimes authors are not identified.I chose it because I felt it was a well balanced view of the program.
8240th A.U. you are quite right,many Nam era Special Forces had patches made up,some of them wore them inside their hats,as they were not permitted to wear them on their uniforms!
They were also "secret mission" units.
snake36bravo,just because a patch does'nt match yours,does'nt mean it is not genuine.These things were hand made by many different people using many different methods and materials.
Saskatoon Light,thanks very much for that info!I would love to acquire one of those advisor school patches!
Itshistory,you are right on target!I have examples that are authentic Vietnam war era theatre made that have minimal back threading,and some that are heavily back threaded.
Well,that's it.It's taken me so long to write this that I fear it's now dated,as new posts keep coming in!Thanks to all who posted,admiring the patch,it is a beauty.I realize that when things are
posted on this forum,as another poster said,one should be able to accept all posts,whether positive or negative.Yes,you are right,but as for myself,when looking at other pieces that others post,
I try to be as pleasant as possible and say something positive about their patch,badge,or whatever they feel to display to us here.If I'm not sure about an item that I see,I just bite my tongue and keep it to myself.If the item does turn out to be a fake,then others more qualified than me will present the proof to back up their statements.There are some real experts here,and I appreciate their being here and sharing their knowledge.Thanks again to everyone for making this an interesting thread!