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Fantasy, Repro, & Counterfeit EGA Reference Thread


cbuehler
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I nice recent aquisition. Rather scarce I am led to believe. No makers mark.

 

Here is part 2 of the saga. Again unmarked,these have the longitude and latitude lines unlike the hat ornament in the other post. Both of these (as well as the cap) appear to be silver plated eagles and globes with gold wash or plated anchors and seperately applied continents. It is not clear in the pics, but there is some minor bubbling to the silver plate on front of one and a bit of green verdegris on the interiors of the globes. This is apparent on the hat ornament as well. The base metal I would assume to be some sort of nickel or white metal of the type used for British cap badges for this verdegris to be present.

This may be more in line with earlier production rather than late. I once had an early 20's officers full dress hat with an early dress EGA that had almost all its silver worn away leaving almost completely gilt appearance. Could British manufacture be a possibility?

 

CB

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teufelhunde.ret

CB, When I first looked, I was stymied by its character and or appearance. Here's my take.....

 

It is out the 1926 "droopy wing" pattern series starting in 1927 with officer's

The eagle has every appearance of those found upon NS Meyer hallmarked types.

The globe however, is not, consistent with those found in the NS Meyer pieces of the period.

The anchor rope pattern is not consistent with those found in the NS Meyer pieces of the period.

 

Pending some close-ups of certain features; my take is this is a repro

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teufelhunde.ret

OK fellow USMC collectors, I am stymied here. This collar emblem does not have any hallmarks; is not true to a period original, very small spinner and extra long stud as well. Please share your thoughts. Thank you.

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jeremiahcable

Darrell,

Based on the shape of the eagle, I'd say it's in the Vanguard/H&H/Viking family of emblems. The overall look reminds me of the type worn in the 30s-50s that is mislabled the '26 pattern. Interesting piece, very interesting. Is it magnetic?

 

Jeremiah

 

Edit note, could this be a theater made piece...i.e China? That would explain the mix of a hashing on the oceans like a dress emblem and the backwards facing eagle.

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Darrell,

 

To me, if you twist his head around and face it the correct way, the eagle has that definite Vanguard look as Jeremiah stated. The eagle and globe appear to be die stamped while the anchor appears to be cast. Am I correct? The extended screw post also looks like something that wouldn't be found on a legitimate emblem. I noticed the bottom tip of S. America overlapping the globe. I don't think that would be something that would escape any of the US makers factories. The roller nut or spinner is also the exact same type that is being sold on the bad fake emblems sold by the eBay seller USNUSA. My honest opinion on this emblem is it's a complete fantasy piece and probably another example of the bad fakes several people are pawning off on eBay. While I would consider it a disappointing fake, it is still scary to see these coming out as partial die stamped emblems. Makes me wonder what's going to come next.

Gary

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teufelhunde.ret

Well folks, Gary hit it dead on, bull's eye. It is a fake, this counterfeit came from the eBay source known as USAUSN. And if you find him there watch the type of "polarized" pic's and vague, yet enticing wording. I had watched him for some time peddle the same stuff.... every few months the identical piece / description would appear. Yup, spent 40. to get this, but worth every penny to see the casting and stamping characteristics. A damn good counterfeit. There are two others doing the same and expect to share their work w/ y'all at some time in future. Gary has alerted me to another potential fake feature in the EGA line, that is going to take some time to sort out... Thanks to all for their comments.

 

And he's back at it 

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/USMC-ENLISTED-MANS-CAP...1QQcmdZViewItem

 

Beware!!!!!!!!!

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Here are some pics of an officer's style droopy wing service emblem that I've owned for a few years. I believe it to be bogus. I bought it from an east coast insignis dealer at an OMSA convention about 6-7 years ago. I kept it as an example. The bird appears to me to be identicle to the dress emblem displayed here. Comments from folks more knowledgeable than me about EGAs will be appreciated.

Semper Fi.....Bob

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teufelhunde.ret

Your right in your assumption. Of note is the raised beading about all edges of the anchor; the loosely spun and poorly wrapped (in wrong position) anchor rope and raised edges left from the casting of the continents. I have heard said these were also done as fantasy emblems for associations and reunions; produced in country (China for example) and so forth. My take is simply that these and others have been made to dupe the budding collector. Quite frankly, I have not seen this one before. And I for one thank you for sharing with us.

 

I look forward to seeing Gary's comments as well 

 

ADMIN & MODERATORS: Another reason the forum/moderators need a fake - dupes - counterfeit - fantasy area ( to include hallmarks) in the EGA reference section for officers & enlisted, please. These type of emblems are costing your fellow collectors allot of dollars 

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  • 1 month later...

Hello again and thanks for the kind words of welcome. I have several EGAs, most of which I've had for 15-20 years or more but I don't know much about them.

 

I'm going to post a front and rear picture of a pair of EGAs in my meager collection. I found them in the breast pocket of a WW-I era Marine officer's summer tunic I acquired some time ago. Since they are droopy-wing EGAs, they are certainly post WW-I. They seem to be made of darkened brass and, while they are in high-relief, the continents are definitely not separately-applied to the globe so my guess is they are not officer EGAs.

 

The only odd thing is that the anchor is separately applied to the back, much like many of the officer EGAs (one has the upper part of the anchor is not quite down in the notch in the edge of the globe made to cradle it). Can anyone provide any information on these for me?

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Thanks; Bill

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Bill,

 

I hate being the one bearing bad news, but in my opinion, your emblems are the cast reproductions that eBay seller USNUSA and ronfortwayne have been peddling for the past decade. There is no doubt in my mind that these have been circulating for a good twenty to twenty five years, so well within the time frame of you finding them. I got burned on a set of the EM's in this pattern from Manion's and that was a good twenty five years ago, so fakes in the "Gooneys" or "Droop Wings" have been around for awhile now. With the larger bold looking eagles, lack of applied continents and seperately applied anchors, I believe it was an attempt by the person who made or is making these to come up with emblems resembling the Meyer "Fire Bronze" Officer quality emblems. The "Fire Bronze" emblems can come with either attached continents or stamped continents, of which yours is. The pin backs are another thing that really bother me, because, as of yet, I haven't encountered or handled a legitimate, original set of P1926 Officer's emblems equipped this way. The biggest giveaway is the fact they appear to be cast and not stamped. If you look at the reverse surfaces of the anchors and edges, they have that "soft, smooth butter" appearance that cast emblems always give and not the sharp, crisp edges of a stamped emblem. You can also see this smooth, cast appearance in the eagles on the reverse. While all original bronze or brass emblems will bend under some amount of pressure, I'm guessing yours will bend very easily, as if they have lead content. You might even run a wing or anchor edge across a piece of writing paper to see if you get a lead trail as if it's writing like a pencil.

 

This is only my opinion, but I think when Darrell (teufelhunde.ret) reads this thread, he might post some images of his new Fire Bronze emblem. He has the capability and ability of posting very good, close up photos, so maybe he can show in detail the sharp, stamped edges and surfaces I speak of. In the meantime, here are some images I borrowed with permission from a very close friend and my mentor when it comes to collecting EGA's. (Robert, if you're reading this, we're all still waiting for you here when you get tired of collecting the loser stuff!!)

 

Semper Fi, Gary

 

If you notice, non applied continents, like yours, on the "Fire Bronze" set on the right. This is the set that I think the fakkers tried to replicate, but the biggest difference is the sharp stamping versus casting. If I'm not mistaken, Darrell's "Fire Bronze" is the version with applied continents. Both are Officer quality.

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And a close up of the front. If you notice, even though the anchor is a seperately applied piece, the anchor stock has been tagged to the wing.

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teufelhunde.ret

Hey Bill, nice to see you back again. I regretfully concur with the comments of Gary. Having seen this post last evening, I had to wait until I could get to office computer to see if I had kept pictures of identical emblems. You see, I too was snookered by these at one time. Could not find those early pic's and have since traded them (yes, the party was informed).

 

Aside from those issues Gary points out, casting and awkward pin clasp, the anchor flukes and ring are not in proportion with the emblem, as well as, the incising of longitude and latitude lines. These observations only come after seeing these "issues" pointed out. And obviously the experience we have gained and the trained eye of our resident EGA guru... Gary. There were several companies who made these over the 10 year span the officer emblems were made and the 6 year span enlisted emblems were produced. IMHO, these reproductions (AKA counterfeits) have characteristic's of four or more of those companies who legitimately manufactured for contract or private purchase (officer's).

 

Nonetheless most of us EGA fanatic's have saved fakes to share the knowledge with others. Our new reference site is up and running on a trial basis (do not know if it shows on your screen yet). The officer's section is complete (posts are being moved) and the enlisted section will be up for trial shortly.

 

With your approval, we would like to move your post to that area. Thank you for sharing these with us thumbsup.gif Best regards;

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Sure....go ahead and move it wherever it might do some good. Luckily, I didn't really "pay" for them. They were in the pocket of the Marine officer's uniform that I bought. I didn't know they were there until I actually got it in my hands (I always go through all the pockets when I get a uniform).

 

Bill

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Quote

Your right in your assumption. Of note is the raised beading about all edges of the anchor; the loosely spun and poorly wrapped (in wrong position) anchor rope and raised edges left from the casting of the continents. I have heard said these were also done as fantasy emblems for associations and reunions; produced in country (China for example) and so forth. My take is simply that these and others have been made to dupe the budding collector. Quite frankly, I have not seen this one before. And I for one thank you for sharing with us.

 

I look forward to seeing Gary's comments as well 

One of his ploys is to fool with photography! He also gives wrong measurements, usually suggesting a cover size emblem, when in fact, it will be slightly larger than collar size. If you read the fine print, he will refund your money, minus postage and a rather hefty restocking fee. There is no doubt in my mind that this seller is responsible for many of the cast fakes in EGA's that have been showing up over the past decade, including some of the better made "Gooneys" or "Droop Wings'.

 

It's my own fault, but right after I got on eBay in 1999 and because he gave measurements on this emblem suggesting large cover size and because he had very small photos, I thought I'd take a chance and see if this emblem was some exotic, before unknown officer's cover emblem. While I consider the $45. win plus hefty postage charges a big burn, it was my own fault! These photos have been enlarged from his originals, but now that many collectors have caught on to his scam, it looks like he has taken a different route with really bad photos. If you notice, nowhere in his listing does he say original. He also won't leave feedback until the buyer does, so that keeps his positive feedback score fairly intact.

 

BTW - Darrell, this emblem also had the very thin continents loosely tacked to the globe and they run off the globe, just like the one you posted. In hand, it's also poorly cast with many bubbles in the casting.

 

Gary

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  • 2 weeks later...
teufelhunde.ret

Sadly these oddities continue to be sold as the real McCoy. Their existence has apparently been peddled for years (perhaps Gary will know?) to unsuspecting collectors... well before the time Internet resources were available.

 

It has also been portrayed as an emblem presented to returning vet's of WW1 and a gift given to those who attended Association reunions as well.

 

If you review Orgel's reference, the differences are readily seen. The casting lacks the crispness of a die, the globe is mounted over the emblem stock and reveals a very unorthodox casting ring as well. The use of applied continents were nothing ever seen with the hand-crafted French EGA's produced for Marine Officers. The eagle presents no detailing whatsoever.....

 

And there are still more varieties of these fantasizes to share with you in the future.

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teufelhunde.ret

And haven't we all. Here's one from my earlier days too. Interesting piece nonetheless. Swept back wings... long & lat lines... chain and so forth. Will have to get the rear of this posted some day. This one usually shows up on eBay 3-4x times a year, from the same seller, on a vintage WW1 pisscover. The other seller just sells 'em straight out, without a disclaimer that they are fantasy items.

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Here is another Note the blunted beak on my eagle. Some time ago I had a discussion with Gary on these, and he thought they were reproduction.

 

Steve

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I've had this 3-piece set of Dress EGAs in silver and gilt for quite a while now. Got them from an insignia dealer from the east coast at an OMSA convention. This was pre EBay and I don't know his name but I think he's a seller on EBay now. At the time I thought they were a non-regulation, foreign made set for a Marine to wear on on his liberty uniform back home., maybe by Gaunt. No markings. The hat badge is totally struck with continents and then has unusual continents applied. He had another hat & a single collar at the time but I have never come across another set since. Afterwards, I acquired an almost identicle stamped right collar in gilt marked with the Meyer shield and Meyermetal. Also have another in solid gilt only, un-marked, but better made. I will post them later.

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teufelhunde.ret

Hi Bob Thank you for sharing these with all of us. I find myself in agreement with your original presumption, I do believe these pre-Internet copies. The first issue of course is the silver/gold use on enlisted cap emblems.

 

The basic design is that of the 1930 cap emblem (and some french variety of the mid-20's), however (I have never seen) in stamped cap emblem, vice cast... is a dead giveaway... COPY. The second element which is wrong in design (horrible) and use, the semi applied continents on enlisted cap emblem... COPY.

 

Those collar emblems however could pass muster with allot of folks and the tell tail element that clue me is the again silver/gold, semi applied continents, poor casting. I look forward to hearing comments from others. s/f Darrell

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I don't like discussing expensive and/or rare emblems for the obvious reasons. I'll tell you what I know. As far as the officer dress type "Gooneys," they have always been extremely, extremely rare with a few in collector's hands or in the possession of museums. This pattern emblem was very unpopular with Marines in the 1930's because of the "Gooney" looking bird (1st hand account by a living 1930's Marine I know), so I don't believe there was a very big demand for them, especially by officer's who had to purchase their own emblems. In the last decade or so, the exact same emblems Darrell and Steve posted have been showing up with allot more frequency, because, I believe, they are so very rare and they demand huge bucks. Also because there is big demand for them by collectors because of the "China Marine" connection?? I'm still trying to figure out that particular connection, but I guess it's a good selling point on eBay. The emblems in question are good copies, but I don't believe they come close to the originals. A close EGA collecting friend and I discussed these some years ago and noted the obvious flaws and a couple of not so obvious flaws. The known originals are die stamped with crisp, sharp edges, these are cast with that waxy or smooth butter appearance. As Darrell has already pointed out, the globe and attached continents aren't the right type for this pattern. The finish on the very thick and not very well applied continents and anchors look more like something from a late 1950's-early 1960's emblem, with a fake gold wash and not the rolled gold or 1/20th G.F. you should find on other officer's emblems of the same 1930's period. Some have suggested British or Chinese made. The British made Gaunt <?> emblems of this type, I'm told, are even better than the US made emblems, so I don't believe these would come close to being those. I can't say for sure because I've never seen a Gaunt emblem of this type, but Gaunt made some real beauties in other patterns, so why not these? As for Chinese made? It would certainly fit the "China Marine" mystique, but exactly when were they made? 75 years ago or 10, 15 or 20 years ago?

 

As for the not so obvious flaws, please feel free to PM me and I'll share with you, but I'd like to keep them under wraps for as long as possible and see if the guy who is popping these out catches his mistakes. My gut feeling is eBay seller USNUSA has something to do with them, or has access to the source.

 

Let me make myself perfectly clear here. These are only my opinions from collecting EGA's for the past 25+ years and from gathered knowledge from collectors who know allot more than me, but I guarantee you that if one of these dress cover birds pops out of an attributed Marine grouping, I'll be the first to apologize. I just don't think I'll have to!

 

After rereading my post and realizing, as Jeremiah puts it, that I just posted another Old Testament reply, sorry! I'm a long winded old fart, but these emblems are worthy of way more discussion.

 

Gary

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