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May I get more about the usmc "quatrefoil"?

Started by michss , Oct 30 2010 01:58 AM

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#1 michss

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 01:58 AM

Some text from wiki:

"In the U.S. Marine Corps, quatrefoil refers to a four-pointed decoration on the top of a warrant or commissioned Marine officer's dress and service caps (see peaked caps, also known in the Marines as "barracks covers"). According to tradition, the design was first used with Marine officers on sailing ships so that Marine sharpshooters in the rigging did not shoot their own officers on the deck during close-quarters gun battles (as when crews of opposing ships attempted to board each other's ship).

An official part of U.S. Marine Corps officer uniforms since 1859, the quatrefoil was said to initially have been crossed pieces of rope sewed into officers' caps before becoming officially mandated as a uniform item."


So anyone kind enough to show more detail about this story?It's so appreciate for your help!

#2 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 02:19 AM

Not much more can be added to what you already know, the braid was taken directly from Napoleon III's Army

#3 michss

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 04:16 AM

In the early marine wartime,how the officer bind their hat as crossing rope?Do u have any illustration?

#4 sigsaye

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 07:36 AM

In the early marine wartime,how the officer bind their hat as crossing rope?Do u have any illustration?

I think he wants to know what it looks like
Steve

#5 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 07:48 AM

Scans from the book "The Civil War Uniforms of the US Marine Corps-The regulations of 1859 as written by Cureton/Sullivan

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#6 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 07:52 AM

.

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#7 normaninvasion

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 08:12 AM

Nice!! I thought this was going to be a tough one

#8 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 08:32 AM

Nice!! I thought this was going to be a tough one

No, this one was easy. What is going to be tough is breaking the decades old myth about the Quatrefoil. Its existence was merely a uniform fashion change to adopt the French designs into the Corps uniforms. Somewhere along the lines the story got mixed up with what was actually happened. This all originated in the 18th century when Marines used a cross-shaped rope on top of their covers to differentiate between friends and foes at rigging. Somewhere the story got horribly twisted and will likely never put to rest...

#9 tsakers85

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 01:26 PM

I think it's interesting that the quatrefoil ultimately only remained regulation in the Marine Corps. Braid was particularly popular with officer's kepis during the Civil War...

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#10 michss

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 06:54 PM

I think it's interesting that the quatrefoil ultimately only remained regulation in the Marine Corps. Braid was particularly popular with officer's kepis during the Civil War...

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yep,this is what I want to know. I think the only reason is that this is Marines Officer specific recognizable sign for mates in the early wartime,and it becomes one of marine traditions.

my question is: how the officer using crossing rope bind their hat in the early 1800's?there's no any Napoleon III's Army and no french-style braid at that time.

Edited by michss, 30 October 2010 - 07:04 PM.


#11 sigsaye

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 09:39 PM

yep,this is what I want to know. I think the only reason is that this is Marines Officer specific recognizable sign for mates in the early wartime,and it becomes one of marine traditions.

my question is: how the officer using crossing rope bind their hat in the early 1800's?there's no any Napoleon III's Army and no french-style braid at that time.

While I would never argue Marine history with a Marine, The thinga about putting stuff on the top of your hat to diferantiate frend from foe is myth. It was just a thing that was done by 19th century officers of several different nations. It was a style that needed a story to explain it. The same thing is said about 19th century Sailors hats. However, topping ornements were only worn od "Dress Up" hats, not on work hats. And, having been aloft in a mast, I can tell you that that sort of detail is not visable down on the deck. Also, in 1815, an order was published removing Marines/snipers from the fighting tops of US Navy ships, as the muzzel blast of their muskets had a inconvient habbit of setting the sails on fire.

Steve Hesson

#12 michss

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 08:26 AM

While I would never argue Marine history with a Marine, The thinga about putting stuff on the top of your hat to diferantiate frend from foe is myth. It was just a thing that was done by 19th century officers of several different nations. It was a style that needed a story to explain it. The same thing is said about 19th century Sailors hats. However, topping ornements were only worn od "Dress Up" hats, not on work hats. And, having been aloft in a mast, I can tell you that that sort of detail is not visable down on the deck. Also, in 1815, an order was published removing Marines/snipers from the fighting tops of US Navy ships, as the muzzel blast of their muskets had a inconvient habbit of setting the sails on fire.

Steve Hesson


Oh,so,is that all?

#13 Jason G

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 09:54 PM

That's all, that's it. Simply a 'decorative' ornament. Nothing more. Of course, this is NOT what Marine Recruits are taught, but it's the actual history.

#14 sigsaye

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 11:24 AM

That's all, that's it. Simply a 'decorative' ornament. Nothing more. Of course, this is NOT what Marine Recruits are taught, but it's the actual history.

The story always sounds better than the real history. The Navy was still teaching recruits that the 13 buttons on the dress blue trousers was for the original 13 colonies. (Also myth, as from 1883 to 1893 the trousers had 11 buttons. In 1893, the trousers were redesigned with a deeper fall and required two more buttons to close. Prior to 1883, Sailors used as many buttons as they liked as the fall front trousers were not issue but "Sailor Made").


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